Egyptian discovery found in grand canyon suppressed?

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Postby Digit » Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:34 pm

That's correct Min, he crossed at the FASTEST point. He used the current and the trade winds. Using the route that he did he would have got there whether he had wanted to or not. Parts of the current move faster than his ships could sail, he could not have turned back in fact on that route.
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Postby clubs_stink » Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:07 pm

Digit wrote:The answer to that Clubs is that people see sailing as a precarious occupation. I am sick of hearing that early sailors crept along the coast lines for example. They did not.
Even in a storm the safest place is at sea, the great fear for sailors was the lee shore.
Even a dismasted ship, if it could maintain steerage, was not in any great danger.

I'm not saying they DID..I'm saying I would have :D (where is the chicken icon).
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Postby Digit » Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:16 pm

So what makes you think they were any different to us on that score Clubs.
I watched a programme the other other evening about the Press Gang during the French wars. The Royal Navy was rarely short of volunteers, which would have preferred, plodding behind a team of plow horses or the chance to make a LOT of money at sea.
Thousands voted with their feet and took the King's shilling!
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Postby clubs_stink » Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:27 pm

Digit wrote:So what makes you think they were any different to us on that score Clubs.
I watched a programme the other other evening about the Press Gang during the French wars. The Royal Navy was rarely short of volunteers, which would have preferred, plodding behind a team of plow horses or the chance to make a LOT of money at sea.
Thousands voted with their feet and took the King's shilling!


Oh I'm not saying they were any different from us at all..human motivations don't change...get ahead of the Jones's be there first, yada yada


then I come across this gem...wonder what ever happend to the kids he took out? I've been in the Darien, that town..well it's one of the most dangerous places in C.A. to be sure..to even being to describe the Darien is impossible..virgin jungle, water so clear you can see all the way to the bottom of the rivers (no run off)...just spectacular (and dangerous)

http://www.eugenicsarchive.org/html/eug ... s/731.html

now , WTHeck is that all about?

*note there are a group of albino Kuna indians primarily in the Las Perlas...Kuna in general look remarkably different from the other indian groups.
Last edited by clubs_stink on Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Digit » Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:34 pm

I don't know anything about it Clubs but I wouldn't be surprised. After all the Aztecs were expecting the Spaniard by all accounts and weren't surprised by the appearance, so it's difficult to explain that without accepting their version of previous visits by white men, even if that doesn't fit accepted dogma.
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Postby Minimalist » Mon Aug 06, 2007 4:55 pm

even if that doesn't fit accepted dogma.




I can hear The Club, now....


PSEUDO-SCIENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Postby clubs_stink » Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:12 pm

I read the whole article and studied the photos and it appears that he's forgotten to mention a few things. The Choco indians appear in the photos to be very much like the Guaymíe and Choco (Emberá and Wounan) Indians I saw in the interior...their means of living and dress has not changed much at all. What I noticed was his mention of the San Blas Islands which are populated with what today we would call Kuna...(who also populate the Chucunaque and Bayano ares) and the clothing on the "white" children bears that out as they are wearing Mola, intricate patterns of fabric layered and cut to form shapes.

http://www.panart.com/mola_gallery.htm

I managed to buy a few antique molas from a Kuna fellow peddling their used clothing on the streets.

From the look of the girl in particular I'd say she appears typical of the albino Kuna I've seen. For some reason this mutation runs rampant in the Kuna at varying degrees. Her facial features appear to be Kuna.the boys, less so..I'd need front on photos.

Guaymíe (whymee) women, when they do wear clothing :D wear a muumuu type garment with an intricate pattern of color around the top of it.

IMHO He has mistaken albino Kuna for a mysterious race

http://espanol.geocities.com/armandofilos/180012005.htm

as you can see by the man pictured here, they do not appear to be the type of albinos that we see up here..this fellow has yellow hair :D

http://www.agpix.com/catalog/AGPix_ToBo ... 0_0029.jpg

It was interesting to read of his expedition from a 1920's point of view...then

http://www.planetark.org/dailynewsstory ... /story.htm

The albinoism in the Kuna is due to the Spanish killing off the gene pool, at one time there were fewer than 5000 Kuna Indians.

Well this was easy to debunk, I wish that were the case with other things.

*note, it would not have been so easy to debunk if not for the clothing the children were wearing as his photos were in black and white.
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Postby Rokcet Scientist » Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:39 pm

Minimalist wrote:
even if that doesn't fit accepted dogma.


I can hear The Club, now....

PSEUDO-SCIENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!


They don't have to, Min. You're already doing it for them...
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Postby Minimalist » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:02 pm

I am sick of hearing that early sailors crept along the coast lines for example. They did not.


I don't know that they did it from fear but certainly they steered by landmarks and thus had to stay within sight of land. Certain legs of a voyage would require sailing out of sight of land (Carthage to Sardinia, for example) and I seem to recall reading that ships would wait in Carthage for a clear night to make the transit so they could steer by the stars.

One of the most famous naval disasters of classical history was the Spartan defeat of the Athenians at Aegispotomoi. The Athenian navy would beach their ships for the night and then go foraging for food. The Spartans caught them thus dispersed. The whole problem was that they were beaching their ships which seems to have been a common solution to the problem of the ships lacking basic creature comforts and proper provisioning.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Postby War Arrow » Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:52 am

Digit wrote:I don't know anything about it Clubs but I wouldn't be surprised. After all the Aztecs were expecting the Spaniard by all accounts and weren't surprised by the appearance, so it's difficult to explain that without accepting their version of previous visits by white men, even if that doesn't fit accepted dogma.

Not expecting exactly, although they had been aware of them since 1502(ish) or at least aware that something was hapening in the gulf, what with all the ships. Plus there was the translator whose name I can never remember who had been living amongst the Maya many years before Cortez showed up. Those "legends" of the coming of white men are more down to the Mesoamerican habit of rewriting history in order to explain the present. Early myths of Quetzalcoatl end with him cremating himself at some vague location in the east. The versions in which he looked like Richard Attenborough and headed east on a raft, promising to return with white folks in tow don't appear in the accounts until about 30 years after the conquest. Not that any of that invalidates your point in any way. I'm just fine tuning.
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Postby Digit » Tue Aug 07, 2007 2:02 am

Morning Min. Don't quote me as I might be wrong, but I believe the horizon at sea is 26 miles away, so any headland or other high point would be visible,weather permitting at a considerable distance whilst still retaining the safety of distance from shoal water.
One of the interesting points about CC's voyage was the fact that he took the fastest route, was that by chance, or as has been suggested in the past, was he working on information received?
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Postby kbs2244 » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:06 am

Boy, we are a long way from the Grand Canyon! But...
There is no doubt that CC had maps. He mentions them in his logs.
As far as hugging the coast is concerned, Henry the Navigators men did it as they were exploring, because they didn't know what to expect. As they went, they logged evey landmark and it's location, for future use.
Bit once they knew the location of the Cape, the trips to India would follow the winds and currents of the South Atlantic so far West that it was not unusual for them to sight the coast of South America. They didn't bother to go exploring because their mission at the time was India and spices.
But those sighting, mentioned in their log books, where what got Portugal the area of Brazil when they were arguing with the Spanish in front of the Pope.
The same thing happend going up the East coast of Afreica. They hugged the coast untill they got to the ports used by the monsoon traders to get to India. After following them, and learning the locations to aim for,
they would just round the Cape and head stright for India.
Being out of sight of land is no big thing for an experienced sailor. And it issn't food you worry about. Every ship had 3 or 4 fish lines trailing them. However, they would sometimes steer to get into a rain storm.
Fresh water was the limiting factor.
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Postby Digit » Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:09 am

How close is hugging KB?
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Postby Minimalist » Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:16 am

Digit wrote:Morning Min. Don't quote me as I might be wrong, but I believe the horizon at sea is 26 miles away, so any headland or other high point would be visible,weather permitting at a considerable distance whilst still retaining the safety of distance from shoal water.
One of the interesting points about CC's voyage was the fact that he took the fastest route, was that by chance, or as has been suggested in the past, was he working on information received?



Absolutely. "Following the coasts" certainly does not mean being close enough to reach out and touch land with an oar. They'd have every incentive to want to be out beyond the surf and any lurking sandbars. I imagine that putting someone up in the mast as a lookout, which seems to be a wise precaution (piracy was common) , would greatly add to that 26 mile horizon.

One of the claims made about Columbus was that he had extensively studied the winds in southern waters while living in Porto Santo.

There are numerous suggestions that other ships made the journey before Columbus. His genius seems to be that he was able to figure out a way to get back and tell the tale.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Postby clubs_stink » Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:41 pm

Speaking of Columbus and maps I read the site of a fellow who wrote a book about this...has a lot on his web site. He contends that Columbus was Jewish and because of that had access to maps of previous voyages and basically KNEW where he was going and that something was out there.
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