The HENGES of North America (was something about X mt DNA)

The Western Hemisphere. General term for the Americas following their discovery by Europeans, thus setting them in contradistinction to the Old World of Africa, Europe, and Asia.

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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby Tiompan » Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:06 am

I can't look at your videos . Plus your continual mention of them is just cheap click bait .

Why not provide pics of the "working " and explain the evidence for transportation .

Then we can get on to the real problem of proving that they can be associated with the Adena .
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby circumspice » Wed Jan 10, 2018 5:34 pm

EP... It's time for you to cowboy up & admit that you're wrong. You have a misconception of what a henge is because of a popular misnomer... (Stonehenge) So puh-leeze just give it up & holler "Calf rope!" It's a sign of intellectual maturity to be able to admit when you are WRONG. 'nuff said???

Wiktionary
henge(Noun)

A prehistoric enclosure in the form of a circle or circular arc defined by a raised circular bank and a circular ditch usually running inside the bank, with one or more entrances leading into the enclosed open space.

Origin: Stonehenge, although it is not strictly a henge.

Freebase
Henge

There are three related types of Neolithic earthwork which are all sometimes loosely called henges. The essential characteristic of all three types is that they feature a ring bank and ditch but with the ditch inside the bank rather than outside. Because of the defensive impracticalities of an enclosure with an external bank and an internal ditch, henges are not considered to have served a defensive purpose. The three types are as follows, with the figure in brackets being the approximate diameter of the central flat area: ⁕Henge. The word henge refers to a particular type of earthwork of the Neolithic period, typically consisting of a roughly circular or oval-shaped bank with an internal ditch surrounding a central flat area of more than 20 m in diameter. There is typically little if any evidence of occupation in a henge, although they may contain ritual structures such as stone circles, timber circles and coves. Henge monument is sometimes used as a synonym for henge. Henges sometimes, but by no means always, featured stone or timber circles, and circle henge is sometimes used to describe these structures. The three largest stone circles in Britain are each in a henge. Examples of henges without significant internal monuments are the three henges of Thornborough Henges. Although having given its name to the word henge, Stonehenge is an atypical henge in that the ditch is outside the main earthwork bank.
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby E.P. Grondine » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:00 am

spice, tiompan -

Let me explain to you why your definition does not work.

Here in Ohio, there are the many ruins of circular earthen structures which fit your definition of henge.
If you were to label them as "henges" that would obscure their true function,
which was ceremonial centers to teach the night sky.
It would also lead to multiple attempts to construct
entirely imaginary Celtic empires in North America.

Finally, it would leave those who have remains with
either wood or stones placed in circular and celestial alignment
without an easy way of describing what they have found.

This originally started with a discussion of whether
the remains at Gobleki Tepe had any astronomical alignment.
IN my opinoin, trying to avoid that issues
by raising fine points of language
will not work.
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby Tiompan » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:39 am

E.P. Grondine wrote:spice, tiompan -

Let me explain to you why your definition does not work.

Here in Ohio, there are the many ruins of circular earthen structures which fit your definition of henge.
If you were to label them as "henges" that would obscure their true function,
which was ceremonial centers to teach the night sky.
It would also lead to multiple attempts to construct
entirely imaginary Celtic empires in North America.

Finally, it would leave those who have remains with
either wood or stones placed in circular and celestial alignment
without an easy way of describing what they have found.

This originally started with a discussion of whether
the remains at Gobleki Tepe had any astronomical alignment.
IN my opinoin, trying to avoid that issues
by raising fine points of language
will not work.
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby Tiompan » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:55 am

Ahhh ,a different tack . This is not what you have been saying for the past few years .
Why didn't you say this years ago ? Anyway it's still BS .

If the putative monuments were the same as henges then it might make sense to them name so .
You couldn't find any of the fantasy Yuchi henges you claimed to exist , let's see if you can produce the goods on Ohio henges . Breath not being held .

We don't need fantasy Celtic empires in America any more than we need your fantasies .

If the wooden or stone monuments had any putative alignments then whatever they are called will have no impact on the likelihood of the alignment .
The name doesn't impact on their function . But if you give them the wrong name it will be confusing and if you know that it is wrong then it is also stupid .

The reason that this keeps cropping up was because you refuse to accept the reality and evade the point , just as you evaded the problems at GT and KT regarding "alignments" .
It's taken a very long time for it to slowly sink in ,maybe in another few years before you actually wake up . The same applies to your fantasies and misunderstandings at GT and KT .

"This originally started with a discussion of whether
the remains at Gobleki Tepe had any astronomical alignment.
IN my opinoin, trying to avoid that issues
by raising fine points of language
will not work."

More easily refutable BS . I first pointed out to the mistake in your use of the term henge in August 2010 , before there were any discussions on your further errors in relation to GT .
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby E.P. Grondine » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:47 pm

Hello tiompan -

From earlier in our discussion:

Image


For comparative purposes:


Image

ESPECIALLY NOT THE HOLED STONE'S LOCATION AT GOBLEKI TEPE.

NOTE PLAQUE C here especially:

Image

C looks to me to be two sighting stone circles, with a comet shown nearby.

The ant(?) at the bottom may be raising a stone.
This is the first time I have seen an ant(?) symbol in this area.

The obverse of C may represent a meteor storm, the Draconids.

It appears there is disagreement on which ends are up:

Image

That said, the twin pillars had significance for the builders of Gobekli Tepe:

Image


once again. Tiompan.

While you yourself may have an intense interest in PPN-B. we (Fletcher and myself) don't.
my guess is that there may be alignments at Gobekli Tepe to Comet Giacobinni Zinner.

I thank you for your earlier help with guidance to links to PPN-B materials.
I saw a video on television the other night where they discussed possible excarnaton activities there.
I will not be supporting you in your effort to build an imaginary celtic empire in Ohio.
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby Tiompan » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:21 am

Lol .
It's a regular pattern . You say something wrong ,the error is pointed out and a response is requested with a “no breath will be held “, you fail to respond meaningfully and evade the issue by introducing an evasive non sequitur which is also wrong . As the errors mount older errors become the new non sequiturs and new ones are introduced ,which in turn will be be refuted and you will fail to respond meaningfully to .

You couldn't respond meaningfully to the request in the previous post
“You couldn't find any of the fantasy Yuchi henges you claimed to exist , let's see if you can produce the goods on Ohio henges . Breath not being held .” coupled with “We don't need fantasy Celtic empires in America any more than we need your fantasies . “. This is enough for you to produce the new fantasy error i.e. my “effort to build an imaginary celtic empire in Ohio. “ . It's a fine demonstration of how you can produce such errors and fantasies elsewhere .
The more you say the the bigger the hole gets .
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby E.P. Grondine » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:19 am

triompan -
When you construct your imaginary Celtic Empire here in Ohio,
be sure to include Arthyr, Brendan, and/or Madoc.
You could even turn the Pelagian's into fore runners of the Templars or Cathars,
and thus link into all the other Theosophist crap out there.
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby Tiompan » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:28 am

EP,
Yet another evaion .
Can't you understand the most obvious points ,or actually respond with any sense ?
You can't repsond to the refutations of your fantasies so you make up something else instead .
They are always wrong and easily refuted .
The latest one is celtic empires .
What didn't you understand about the post you are supposedly responding to . e.g. "coupled with “We don't need fantasy Celtic empires in America any more than we need your fantasies . “. This is enough for you to produce the new fantasy error i.e. my “effort to build an imaginary celtic empire in Ohio. “ . It's a fine demonstration of how you can produce such errors and fantasies elsewhere . "
Where did you get your latest fantasy from ? All you have to do is provide a quote . You won't /can't .
Your response will be another non sequitur made up red herring .
The volume of your crap is approaching Theosophist standards .
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:31 am

That entirely imaginary Celtic Empire is simply a redfuctio ad absurdam of your definition of "henge", tiompan.
From "Man and Impact in the Americaas":

ASTRONOMERS AND HENGES,
AND THE HARVEST FEAST OF THE DUHARHE

Another motif commonly found represented on artifacts from Southern Ceremonial sites is that of dancers dressed in snake costumes. I have little doubt that the people shown in these images were their "astronomers".

It is also well established that the Southern Ceremonial Cult Priest-Kings harnessed lightening in their rites: the post holes from trees used as lightening rods have been located on the tops of their temple mounds , and as I mentioned earlier there was no differentiation between lightening and bolides or impacts.

As Martyr reports that "Their year is divided into 12 moons.", there can be little doubt that their astronomy was based on modified lunar cycles. Martyr also provides us with a description of what appears to be a festival at a henge, which is probably the thanksgiving harvest festival alluded to earlier, and thus took place in the fall:

"Another feast is celebrated every year, when a roughly carved wooden statue is carried into the country and fixed upon a high pole planted in the ground. This first pole is surrounded by similar ones, upon which [the] people hang gifts for the gods, each one according to his means.

"At NIGHTFALL the principle citizens", [this would be the Suns, the lesser Suns, who were the queen and king's family, and the Nobles, and the Honored Men], "divide these offerings among themselves, just as the priests do the cakes and other offerings given them [the gods] by the women."

"Whoever offers the divinity the most valuable presents is the most honored. Witnesses [the Bards] are present when the gifts are offered, who announce after the ceremony what every one has given, just as notaries might do in Europe. Each one is thus stimulated by a spirit of rivalry to outdo his neighbor.

"From sunrise until evening", [Here begins the second day of the feast.], "the people dance around this statue, clapping their hands. And when NIGHTFALL has barely set in, the image and the pole on which it was fixed are carried away and thrown into the sea, if the country is on the coast, or into the river, if it is along a river's bank." [It should be remembered in this context that the horned snake asteroids and comets had a water "aspect", and that space was seen as a cold dark lake.]

“Nothing more is seen of it, and each year a new statue is made.” [Although apparently the henge remained intact.]
....

A YUCHI HENGE TALE

The following fragment was recovered by Swanton from Tuggle's records of a person who was among the last survivors of the Yuchi tribe, a tribe which had ended as a separate group several hundred years earlier, and one that was on the very eastern periphery of area of the Southern Ceremonial Cult. I repeat the tale here, for as near as I know it's all that we have of it; perhaps a better version may be obtained from Swanton or Tuggle's notes.

"The people wished to find their medicine. A Great monster Serpent destroyed the people.
They cut his [the Great Serpent’s] head from his body. The next day [age] the body and head were together again.
They again slew the monster. His head again grew to his body."
[This seems to be the growth of a comet's tail, recurring on a periodic basis.]

“Then they cut off his [the Great Serpent’s] head and placed it on top of a tree, so that the body could not reach it.
The next morning [age] the tree was dead, and the head united to the body.
They again severed it, and put it upon another tree.
In the morning the tree was dead, and the head and body were re-united.

“The people continued to try all the trees in the forest.
At last they placed the head over the tar tree, the cedar tree,
and in the morning the head was dead.
The cedar was alive, but covered with blood which had trickled down from the head.

“Thus the Great Medicine was found."
...
Going back to it, I am surprised that I did not include the eye witness report of the colonists from Charleston.
That could be used to find a nice site.
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby Tiompan » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:52 am

The entirely imaginary celtic empire is another example of your fantasising .
You are wrong about the definition of henge and anyone who has read these posts knows it too . Stop wasting our time .

You were asked to provide any evidence for a Yuchi henge , as ever you failed .
You even got festivities mixed up with monuments , remember that one ?
In case you do here is the quote ," As the Yuchi festivities were astronomically timed, the archaeologists here define it as a "henge"
A further made up story about archaeologists , you couldn't provide any quote from anyone who is actually an archaeologist that you could use as supporting evidence .
By associating this error with your "book" you are making it even less likely to sell any copies .

The more you say the more you get it wrong and the less likely anyone will give any credibility to your "ideas " .
Maybe that is the point , you are trying to attract the real nuts ,after all they do buy that BS .
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:50 pm

Timacua, Florida:

Image

North Carolina:

Image

From
http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/ce090400.html,
year 2000, since surperceded.

ASTRONOMERS AND HENGES

Another image commonly found at Southern Ceremonial sites is that of
dancers dressed in snake costumes. I have little doubt that the people
shown in these images were their "astronomers". It is also well
established that the Southern Ceremonial Cult Priest-Kings harnessed
lightening in their rites: the post holes from trees used as lightening
rods have been located on the tops of their temple mounds, and as I
mentioned earlier there was no differentiation between lightening and
bolides or impacts.

As [Peter] Martyr reports that "Their year is divided into 12 moons.", there
can be little doubt that their astronomy was based on lunar cycles.
Martyr also provides us with a description of what appears to be a
festival at a henge, which is probably the thanksgiving harvest
festival alluded to earlier, and thus took place in the fall:

"Another feast is celebrated every year, when a roughly carved wooden
statue is carried into the country and fixed upon a high pole planted
in the ground. This first pole is surrounded by similar ones, upon
which [the] people hang gifts for the gods, each one according to his
means.

"At NIGHTFALL the principle citizens", [Who is meant here - the lesser
Suns, who were the king's family, or the Nobles, or the Honored Men? It
can't be the Bards.- epg], "divide these offerings among themselves,
just as the priests do the cakes and other offerings given them [the
gods] by the women."

"Whoever offers the divinity the most valuable presents is the most
honored. Witnesses [the Bards-epg] are present when the gifts are
offered, who announce after the ceremony what every one has given, just
as notaries might do in Europe. Each one is thus stimulated by a
spirit of rivalry to outdo his neighbor.

"From sunrise until evening", [Here begins the second day of the feast.
- epg], "the people dance around this statue, clapping their hands. And
when NIGHTFALL has barely set in, the image and the pole on which it was
fixed are carried away and thrown into the sea, if the country is on the
coast, or into the river, if it is along a river's bank." [It must be
remembered in this context that the horned snake asteroids and comets
had a water "aspect", and that space was seen as a cold dark lake.- epg]

"Nothing more is seen of it, and each year a new statue is made."

Ohio

https://news.nationalgeographic.com/new ... t-science/

Image

Image

Cahokia:

Image

The Cahokia wood henges are generally assumed to have been inspired by medicine wheels (Siouxian),
but this may not be so.

The colonial traveller's tale is somewhere in my notes in Illinois. Given that the site should be located, I will try to retrieve it.
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby Tiompan » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:11 pm

And still no Yuchi henge or anything from any archaeologist describing a Yuchi monument that resembles a henge .

Drawings of the Timacua, a people ,not a place , do not show a Yuchi monument , or a henge for that matter .
The drawing of people from north carolina is not of a henge .

When you look at the link https://news.nationalgeographic.com/new ... t-science/
the headline says it all wooden "stonehenge " emerges from Prehistoric Ohio . Timber circles like the UK monument ...."

Did you read and understand that ?
There is no reason that Nat geo should get the terminology correct , but they did .
First there was no mention of Yuchi . Then it said wooden "stonehenge " ,a typical attention grabber but the explanation was " Like Stonehenge, the Ohio timber circles were likely used to mark astronomical events such as the summer solstice."
Just as in the headline the monument is correctly described as being a timber circle ,not a henge .
Even your own links show your error but you seem too blind to notice .
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:05 am

Tiompan -

What is obvious o me is that the archaeo-astronomers would have
an easier time of it if they had an easy to use and widely understood
word for a wooden post or stone placed in a circular astronomical alignment.
"Henge" presents itself a a good candidate.
This holds true not only for North America but for Europe, Asia, Africa and elsewhere.

I'll try to retrieve the colonial account of that Yuchi henge site when time permits.
I had no idea of its importance when I first read it 17 years ago.

To bring this back to topic, if Fletcher and I find an Adena monolith in astronomical alignment,
we'll call it a "henge", as it would be nice if people understood us.
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby Tiompan » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:35 am

E.P. Grondine wrote:
What is obvious o me is that the archaeo-astronomers would have
an easier time of it if they had an easy to use and widely understood
word for a wooden post or stone placed in a circular astronomical alignment.


What is obvious to people who know the correct terminology for monuments and archaeoastronomy is that the
terms exist . You have been told them , you just ignore the info .

E.P. Grondine wrote:"Henge" presents itself a a good candidate.

[/quote ]
No it doesn't , this is obvious to anyone who understands simple english and can read the various links pointing your error .
We have the the terminology and henge has nothing at all to do with astronomy and is confined the morphology of the monument .

Any putative or even actual astronomcal function that might be associated with the monument also has it's terminology .

E.P. Grondine wrote:I'll try to retrieve the colonial account of that Yuchi henge site when time permits .

[/quote ]
If it was a colonial account they wouldn't have used the term henge . Why not provide a modern archaeological reference ?

E.P. Grondine wrote:To bring this back to topic, if Fletcher and I find an Adena monolith in astronomical alignment,
we'll call it a "henge", as it would be nice if people understood us

.


Lol , some of the alt nuts might "understand " but anyone who knows anything about archaeology , henges , archaeoastronomy ,would realise that
they were dealing with people who didn't know what they were talking about .
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