The HENGES of North America (was something about X mt DNA)

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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby circumspice » Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:46 pm

:D
E.P. Grondine wrote:
circumspice wrote:EP... One of my nephews is 6'11" tall. He is naturally tall, without any of the related pathologies that many tall people suffer from. He is not a giant, he's just tall. My dad had a great uncle who was reportedly 7'1" tall. He wasn't a giant either. A great many people in my dad's family were exceedingly tall. So what? Tall people are the result of genetics combined with good nutrition. There is a known link between proper nutrition & height. Why make a big deal out of height anyway? It's not all that extraordinary or even uncommon. Why are you obsessed with tall Indians? I find that part entirely laughable. [/size]


Thanks for some sanity. What were dealing with is people and skeletons regularly into the mid 7 foot range.
Your point about nutrition and height is well taken.
But what happens to a hominid population that regularly receives very good nutrition?
My guess is that it mutates for height.


Height is just another very distinctive and easily observable Adena cultural marker.

There's nothing like having what you note made used to claim something you do not agree with.
Did your family members play basketball?
Its pretty clear to me that most anthropologists have not met any basketball players,
and that they have never attended an Osage powwow.

Right now I wonder when the Ivan van Sertima school will show up claiming Watusi ancestry for these folks. :lol:


EP... You're straying away from reality yet again.

Good nutrition does NOT foster mutations. Period.

Mutations are RANDOM. It doesn't matter if the mutation is beneficial, detrimental or neutral. All mutations are RANDOM.

Do you possess an understanding of the concept of randomness?

If there was a 'hominid' population that was affected by a neutral mutation such as greater than average height, who then just spontaneously decided to select for that particular trait, then the trait could be fixed within that population within a few generations time. But that would presuppose that the 'hominid' population was making conscious selections for breeding certain distinctive traits within their group. That doesn't hold up to even the most casual scrutiny.

Puh-leeze... Do a reality check on what you post before you post something as ridiculous as you propose.
"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby E.P. Grondine » Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:09 pm

And here tiom,pan is your very own lump of coal for Christmas.

NOTE PLAQUE C here especially:

Image

Spice - misstating what I say is not fair dinkums.

I do not even feel like typing it again :roll: , as it distracts me from planning this years activities. :twisted:
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby Tiompan » Thu Dec 28, 2017 1:13 am

Well at least this time it's just a drawing of the plaque .

Maybe you have finally learnt that your "interpretation" of it tells us more about you than the markings .
Maybe you have finally learnt that the same markings are found all over the world in many cultures from at least the paleolithic , with multiple explanations including ethnographic ones .
But like most fantasists the reality doesn't intrude ,and they don't learn from their mistakes ,and it won't be the last time we hear of the fantasy .
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby circumspice » Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:46 am

Plaque C reminds me of a herd of animals, such as aurochs or some other long horned beast, crossing a river, with only their heads showing above water. Stylized, of course. Did I pass the Rorschach test? :D
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby Tiompan » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:14 am

Considering the frequency of Bucrania as a motif in rock art and it's use in the approximate area and period , your non serious interpretation is actually more reasonable than EP's .
In the absence of info from the engraver(s) it's all (gaze and ) guess work and anyone who tells you different is a charlatan , more so when it is non representational .
All good clean entertainment but never enlightening , except as an insight in to the mind of the interpreter
Even ethnography ,which has some value , can be incredibly misleading .
Interpretation changes every generation , or faster , and most serious researchers avoid it .
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby E.P. Grondine » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:41 am

But like most fantasists the reality doesn't intrude ,and they don't learn from their mistakes ,and it won't be the last time we hear of the fantasy
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby Tiompan » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:45 am

E.P. Grondine wrote:But like most fantasists the reality doesn't intrude ,and they don't learn from their mistakes ,and it won't be the last time we hear of the fantasy


Yes , a glimmer of hope , soon to be dashed no doubt .
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby E.P. Grondine » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:46 am

Tiompan wrote:But like most fantasists the reality doesn't intrude, and they don't learn from their mistakes, and it won't be the last time we hear of the fantasy.


The only fantasy here is your own, tiompan, in which a comet did not hit the Earth at the start of the Holocene.

The problems you have are with the global layer of platinum group elements, the non continuous geological data,
and the unusual productions of 14C.

Colin Renfrew (1976:2) has remarked that "every archaeological problem
starts as a problem in geoarchaeology." This is particularly true in the realm of
Paleoindian studies.

Which leaves you with another problem. tiompan.
By the end of this year you will be hard pressed to find a geologist who agrees with you.
As a matter of fact, unless you have lined up anyone slow, you will have a rough time finding a geologist
who agrees with you now.

Tiompan wrote:Even ethnography ,which has some value, can be incredibly misleading .
Interpretation changes every generation, or faster, and most serious researchers avoid it .


Another problem you face, tiompan, is coming up with an explanation for why any people would create
tales or written records of stuff falling from space.

Tiompan wrote:As for Andrew Collins , where do we start with his easily refuted nonsense?
More to the point seeing as you mentioned it , “Ashes of Angels “ was sold along with the tag
“Provides convincing evidence that angels, demons, and fallen angels were flesh-and-blood members of a giant race predating humanity,
spoken of in the Bible as the Nephilim. “ .
You describe it as “very good “ .
Ok,
it is a very good example of a genre typified by being poorly written, poorly researched, full of fantasy, lacking in evidence, and popular with the gullible .

Schmidt ,the original, excavator had commented on the possibility of excarnation at GT long before Collins ,who merely quoted him .


Ok. start with a young boy who is raised in a Christian environment, who develops an interest in "angels".
Later in life he gathers ethnographic materials together and writes a best seller.
He also gathers together archaeological materials, and is well like by the people currently living in the area.

Spice wrote:Plaque C reminds me of a herd of animals, such as aurochs or some other long horned beast, crossing a river, with only their heads showing above water. Stylized, of course. Did I pass the Rorschach test?


Yes, spice you passed. :roll:
What you showed is that you are in such denial that you can not see what is evident.
If you notica, you skipped over the pillars shown on the tablet,
in coming up with your "interpretation." 8)

Spice wrote:I'd sooner chew on broken glass than read that tripe that you self published EP


Spice, for a mere $35 dollars you an buy a copy of "Man and Impact in the Americas" from amazon
and then leave as nasty a review as you want.

BTW, the book was reviewed by my peers,
in other words those scientists working on recent impact events.
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:20 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby Tiompan » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:01 am

Where is the data ? I quote you when you make up your stories .
Provide the quotes where I made any mistake in relation to comets and the Holocene .
As ever , when waiting for you providing supporting evidence breath will not be held .

Your problem EP is that your imagination exceeds all else .
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby Tiompan » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:18 am

You really don't know why myths are associated with the sky ?
Try finding a mythology /cosmology from any period anywhere that does not involve an association with the sky , either as the abode of the gods , or the place where souls end up , or how asterisms are involved in their history /origin myths etc. ?

BTW the mention of ethnography was related to interpretation of motifs . You can include contemporary western "ethnography " where interpreters will attempt to explain the meaning of works of art produced by members of their own culture and period , they may even know them , and they still get it wrong .Imagine the problems for an ignorant punter attempting the same , but spatially , temporally and culturally far removed .It's provides us with entertainment that's all .
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby circumspice » Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:22 pm

E.P. Grondine wrote:
Tiompan wrote:But like most fantasists the reality doesn't intrude, and they don't learn from their mistakes, and it won't be the last time we hear of the fantasy.


The only fantasy here is your own, tiompan, in which a comet did not hit the Earth at the start of the Holocene.

The problems you have are with the global layer of platinum group elements, the non continuous geological data,
and the unusual productions of 14C.

Colin Renfrew (1976:2) has remarked that "every archaeological problem
starts as a problem in geoarchaeology." This is particularly true in the realm of
Paleoindian studies.

Which leaves you with another problem. tiompan.
By the end of this year you will be hard pressed to find a geologist who agrees with you.
As a matter of fact, unless you have lined up anyone slow, you will have a rough time finding a geologist
who agrees with you now.

Tiompan wrote:Even ethnography ,which has some value, can be incredibly misleading .
Interpretation changes every generation, or faster, and most serious researchers avoid it .


Another problem you face, tiompan, is coming up with an explanation for why any people would create
tales or written records of stuff falling from space.

Tiompan wrote:As for Andrew Collins , where do we start with his easily refuted nonsense?
More to the point seeing as you mentioned it , “Ashes of Angels “ was sold along with the tag
“Provides convincing evidence that angels, demons, and fallen angels were flesh-and-blood members of a giant race predating humanity,
spoken of in the Bible as the Nephilim. “ .
You describe it as “very good “ .
Ok,
it is a very good example of a genre typified by being poorly written, poorly researched, full of fantasy, lacking in evidence, and popular with the gullible .

Schmidt ,the original, excavator had commented on the possibility of excarnation at GT long before Collins ,who merely quoted him .


Ok. start with a young boy who is raised in a Christian environment, who develops an interest in "angels".
Later in life he gathers ethnographic materials together and writes a best seller.
He also gathers together archaeological materials, and is well like by the people currently living in the area.

Spice wrote:Plaque C reminds me of a herd of animals, such as aurochs or some other long horned beast, crossing a river, with only their heads showing above water. Stylized, of course. Did I pass the Rorschach test?


Yes, spice you passed. :roll:
What you showed is that you are in such denial that you can not see what is evident.
If you notica, you skipped over the pillars shown on the tablet,
in coming up with your "interpretation." 8)

Spice wrote:I'd sooner chew on broken glass than read that tripe that you self published EP


Spice, for a mere $35 dollars you an buy a copy of "Man and Impact in the Americas" from amazon
and then leave as nasty a review as you want.

BTW, the book was reviewed by my peers,
in other words those scientists working on recent impact events.


EP... I hate to break the bad news to you... You cannot be the peer of any scientist. You lack the credentials to make such a claim. You are, or were, nothing more than a schlock reporter. You cling to their coattails, nothing more.
"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby E.P. Grondine » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:03 am

circumspice wrote:
EP... I hate to break the bad news to you...
You cannot be the peer of any scientist.
You lack the credentials to make such a claim.
You are, or were, nothing more than a schlock reporter.
You cling to their coattails, nothing more.





Thank you for calling me a "schlock reporter".

As the definition of schlock is "cheap or inferior goods or material; trash,"
perhaps the work you are looking for is "hack".
And perhaps Mr. Trump will stop using the term "fake news",
and start using "schlock news".

You obviously are not a scientist working in impact studies, spice.
You definition of science and the scientific method
is certainly one way for you to avoid dealing with the data.

I suppose then then that it is time for me to get back to the honorable occupation of reporting.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby circumspice » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:08 am

E.P. Grondine wrote:
circumspice wrote:
EP... I hate to break the bad news to you...
You cannot be the peer of any scientist.
You lack the credentials to make such a claim.
You are, or were, nothing more than a schlock reporter.
You cling to their coattails, nothing more.





Thank you for calling me a "schlock reporter".

As the definition of schlock is "cheap or inferior goods or material; trash,"
perhaps the work you are looking for is "hack".
And perhaps Mr. Trump will stop using the term "fake news",
and start using "schlock news".

You obviously are not a scientist working in impact studies, spice.
You definition of science and the scientific method
is certainly one way for you to avoid dealing with the data.

I suppose then then that it is time for me to get back to the honorable occupation of reporting.



EP... You obviously are not a scientist working in impact studies either. The difference between us is that I make no such false claims.

The sobriquet hack reporter works as well as schlock reporter. In the final analysis, it all points to your penchant for yellow journalism. Your method is sloppy, lacking grounding in real science & relying heavily upon the conspiracy theory industry for your source materials.

Another item: you desperately need a qualified proof reader for whatever you post & a qualified videographer... Perhaps one who doesn't light up cigars during filming & knows how to set up the audio... Then, after all that, a handler who reminds you to always face the camera during filming...
"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope
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Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:59 am



As you have never read my book you have no idea of the sources nor method I used for it. :evil:
Your knowledge of impact scientists is similar: nil.
I am pretty certain you never read my reporting either.

Other people have though:

luxe magazine wrote:Hancock: I’m working now on a big book on ancient America. Two main reasons for that; firstly, a lot of new science on the peopling of the Americas has taken a long time . It’s taken about 25 years to break the old paradigm. But the old understanding of the peopling of the Americas, which used to say there were no humans in the Americas before about 13,000 years ago, has now been completely overturned by new discoveries. Initially, those discoveries were resisted by the establishment very strongly, and many archeological careers were ruined – those archaeologists who were willing to acknowledge and older human presence. But lo and behold, they were right.

The information has now reached such a level that it has overwhelmed the old paradigm; the old paradigm cannot stand in the face of new evidence of humans in America 25,000 years ago, 50,000 years ago, and most recently, a big paper published in Nature in April 2017: Human Presence in the Americas 130,000 Year Ago. That’s 10 times as old as human beings were supposed to have been, in the Americas! That’s in a site near San Diego in California. So, not only that, but DNA work is also giving us a new story about the peopling of the Americas. We’re now beginning to understand how complicated it is. There are certain fragments of DNA that are associated with a group of humans; not anatomically modern humans, but humans that have been a bit like the Neanderthals. They have bred with modern humans and left their traces in the human DNA, just like the Neanderthals did. That DNA is present very strongly amongst Australian Aboriginal Indians and amongst certain tribes in South America.

It hardly appears at all in North America. So the notion that the whole Americas were peopled across the Bering land bridge once the sea level was lower, now the Bering Strait, and that the migration came all the way through to South America, is just wrecked by that finding. It means that people, human beings, had to have got to South America by sea directly, not coming through North America at all, and that raises huge issues about ancient navigation and ancient skills and ancient abilities.

The second reason I’m very interested in focusing in on the Americas is that they have not played a big part in my work until now, and I’m just intrigued and excited by what’s happening. I got activated on this subject when I participated at Standing Rock in 2016 and got to know the Lakota, did some interviews there, and really for the first time I think, I understood the terrible genocide that was inflicted upon the Native American peoples and how their culture, their history, their true past was deliberately obliterated by the invaders, and how so many lies were told about them. I’d like it if my new book can help correct those lies.


As a colleague put it to me, "Hancock is going to eat your lunch".

Jason Colavito wrote:
Graham Hancock Endorses Book about Lost "Megalithic" Culture of North America

12/13/2017

It’s been a big week for Graham Hancock. A South African professor endorsed his lost civilization, and a luxury magazine conducted a fawning interview. Now, Bear & Company is getting ready to publish Spirits in Stone: The Secrets of Megalithic America: Decoding the Ancient Cultural Stone Landscapes of the Northeast by Glenn Kreisberg, and Hancock has his name on the cover as the author of the book’s credulous forward. Of the book itself there is little to say. It is more than 400 pages long and seeks to explore alleged stellar alignments among various rocks and earthworks in the northeastern United States to conclude that an advanced super-civilization once occupied the future United States. Weirder, it is partly the work of Kresiberg and partly an anthology of partially related essays by other writers. It is an odd book.
​Kreisberg developed his ideas while living near Woodstock, New York, which he identified as a center of megalithic star culture. He has been promoting version of the idea since at least 2011, including on Graham Hancock’s own website. I remember reading the linked article last year and finding it so unimpressive that I didn’t think to say anything about it. Kreisberg is also the editor of Mysteries of the Ancient Past: A Graham Hancock Reader, so you can see where from where he takes his inspiration.

I feel like I should be reviewing Spirits in Stone, but I must confess that the thought of giving more than a cursory reading to 400 pages of minute arguments about stellar alignments makes my eyes glaze over. The problem is reducible to a simple point: Even if we accept that such stones and earthworks were indeed purposefully aligned to stars and constellations (and that they are all artificial constructions and not, as is the case with some, natural), it implies nothing about the existence of an “advanced” Atlantis-like civilization, for observation of the stars and the ability to point rocks at them is, in the final analysis, not an inherent development of state-level societies. Anyone with sufficient motivation and a rudimentary ability to carve records of stellar positions could do it.

Anyway, Kreisberg invited Hancock to tour some of what he views as megalithic sites in the northeastern United States, and Hancock came away convinced that Native Americans once had a scientifically advanced civilization that expressed sophisticated mathematical truths through the medium of stones aligned to stars. However, Hancock feels that Euro-Americans have destroyed these stony wonders:

"What my rambles with Glenn have shown me, however, and what this book will reveal to you, are that those fragments are indeed present, even in the intensively settled, heavily farmed, and economically developed Northeast where the barbaric forces of “modernization” have been at work the longest, erasing and confusing the record of stone."

​Here Hancock presents an infuriating mixture of fact and fantasy that marries a correct criticism—that agricultural and industrial development has disturbed or destroyed archaeological sites—to a romantic fantasy that the destroyed parts of the archaeological record would reveal a “Hermetic” civilization of staggering wisdom and complexity, one possessed of “energizing, healing, and soul-enriching effects.”

Hancock is at a loss, though, to explain why North America, if part of the same global system of megalithic construction inherited from Atlantis, lacks the kinds of massive stone sites that the Old World has in spades. With the haughty condescension of a wealthy, liberal European, he attributes the missing stone structures to deliberate destruction by us heathen colonials who lack a certain European refinement and British comfort with deep history.

"What is different in America is only the scale of destruction of this ancient worldwide system, deliberate destruction, pursued for short-term economic gains, by rude and barbarous incomers whose cultures had been cut off from the wellsprings of planetary wisdom for so long that they were literally unable to see the pearls of great price that they so carelessly and callously swept away.'

​He doesn’t quite identify who these incomers are, but when he said that “we” are their “descendants,” he makes plain that he is speaking, somewhat imprecisely, of European colonists. Perhaps stung by the repeated criticism that his hypothesis about a lost white race civilizing the brown peoples of the world is racist, or at least racist-adjacent, Hancock has here and in his newer work from the past twelve months or so overcorrected and all but falls into the trap of demonizing Europeans while fetishizing Native Americans as possessors of a purer and more harmonious ancient earth wisdom that makes them all but avatars of occult earth magic.


E.P. Grondine
 

Re: X mt DNA in North America

Postby circumspice » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:13 pm

Ah... Now the reason for your fawning defense of Hancock is 'revealed'... He scratches your back & you feel the need to respond in kind. Perhaps the two of you will collaborate in the future & you will finally get the chance trowel through tsunami deposits on Crete, yes? :lol:

Yup, hitching your wagon to Graham Hancock's gravy train might just get you where you want to go. You certainly haven't been able to to do it on your own.
"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope
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