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Atlanitic ocean impact tsunami's

PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:18 pm
by E.P. Grondine
I hope to assemble some materials here.

pre contact era history, and the Chilam Balam texts
A really great work:

Great work, in which David Bolles demonstrates that the books were translated from uooh (Mayan glyphs): ... yanLit.pdf
see "ah muzen cab" on page 281, Section H, Ritual 2

Re: Atlanitic ocean impact tsunami's

PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:08 pm
by Minimalist
Um... Es steht in deutscher Sprache

Re: Atlanitic ocean impact tsunami's

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:57 pm
by E.P. Grondine
Hi min -

Yes, but it's German writing, not speech.
Let us hope that some graduate students will translate it into English and Spanish, and get it posted to the FAMSI site.

[All of the post war Russian rocket pioneers were fluent in German, as were von Braun's team members, naturally.
There was a piece on German chemical weapons yesterday on the Washingon Post,
and some of the commentators really knew their stuff.
Since the Holocaust Museum now has a copy of the SS archives, perhaps some details can be found in them
on human experimentation in the Concentration Camps.
Personally, I can not even bear to watch the video on Japan's Unit 731.
Thanks for letting me vent here, I needed to clear my mind on this, and get on to the work at hand.]

Enough of my very limited German is left that I can pick up the general drift of this thesis.
[It has so many technical terms that I am very delighted to find the I can still do at least that.]

One fundamental question for most Mayan scholars is whether there were multiple "Chilam Balam's" working from Mayan glyph documents,
or one "Chilam Balam" whose glyph translation was copied multiple times.
I go with the first option.

One of my purposes here is to document the various "Ah Musen Cab" accounts,
which in my opinion is the key to understanding the Mayan world view and cosmology,
and their particular magic practices:
the seating of the katun, the heart sacrifice.


Although a lot of work has been done on "Ah Musen Cab" and the geology of Atlantic Ocean Impact Tsunami's
since I researched my book:'s


but It has not been co-ordinated.

I'm going to start here with the proto-historical materials, then move on to the new geological data.

In my opinion, you can not understand the Mayan world view
without understanding that "small" comet and asteroid impacts occurred in the recent past.

(The same thing holds or the northern Mexican peoples.
Thankfully, I had no idea' of the breaking of Mixtec glyphic by Caso, or my book would not have been completed before my stroke.)

Another key question is the dating of the Greater and Lesser Descents,
in other words the arrivals of "Teotihaucan" and "Tollan" peoples into the Yucatan.

Re: Atlanitic ocean impact tsunami's

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:58 pm
by E.P. Grondine
The situation gets worse.
Motul identified "Chilam Balam" as "interpreters of Nahuatl".
Thus Nahuatl may have been "the language of Zuwiya" (following Kelley and Malloy),
and our currently existing "Mayan" codices may have been written in Yucatec Tollan Nahuatl (mayathan?)
using some adaptation of the classic Mayan glyph writing system.
In other words, we may have a situation analogous to the relationship between Linear A and Linear B.
Or perhaps the "Language of Zuwiya" was a group of homophonic word plays necesary for reading glyphs?

Option B:
Or it could be that the codices were written to re-assert Mayan identity after the "Toltec" nahuatl had lost control.
(and the books of the Chilam Balam to explain to the Spanish that the Yukatek held the land, and not the Itza.)

In my opinion, page 74 of the Dresden Codex and the tale of Ah Musen Cab is the key to them.
If classic Mayan glyph values are applied to the glyphs around that drawing of Ah Musen Cab,
the resulting morphemes should be either mayathan or chollan,
and should relate to Ah Musen Cab.

(I want to add here that I do not like the Mayan aesthetic:
a people ripped out of their minds on hallucinogens and very, very afraid:
on a bum trip, so to speak.
I do not like the Aztec aesthetic either:
the New World's Nazis.
For me Mixtec is the most pleasing of the MesoAmerican aesthetics.)

Re: Atlanitic ocean impact tsunami's

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:02 pm
by E.P. Grondine
Well, I thought I would take a look at the Dresden Codex for Toltec "Zorro Masks".
Yep, they're there.

The Teotihuacan Coyote? Racoon? Weasel? shows up in the Dresden Codex as well, but without his goggles and warrior dress.
Instead he holds a small one of these in his left hand:

Given the Mesoamerican inductive thinking, and repeating cycles of time,
at points the Dresden Codex may show one katun in one band, with two more stacked above,
or one baktun band stacked with two more stacked above.

To the immediate point at hand, the several Atlantic Ocean impact tunami's,
and sorting them out,
ah musen cab shows up several times between pages 47-50, in various garbs.
For example:
here with Toltec "Zorro Mask".

What I have noticed is the particles of paint which have come loose in hieroglyphic codices.
I suspect that some of these may have come loose from facing pages.
Thus if one could figure out the folding order and facing pages,
it may be possible to re-construct missing portions of a page's text from the particles of paint adhering to its facing page.
This involves flipping the facing page image horizontally, and then overlaying it on its facing page.
Of course, pre-processing of the page images could be done as well to facilitate this process.

It might be possible to apply this technique to several existing codices.
in other words, the noise on one page may derive from signal on its facing page.

But then most of the codices are in real need of multi-spectral imaging.
It is particularly irritating that some Mixtec green paint has deteriorated to a brown color, which can not be visually differentiated from brown paint.

Re: Atlanitic ocean impact tsunami's

PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:42 pm
by E.P. Grondine
Just some notes for the day -

1) a "tortilla fest" or "tortilla banquet" may refer to the eating of conquered warriors or sacrificial victims.

2) As far as the date for "Spanish arrival" goes for working the correlation problem:
we do not know if the Yucatec Maya were aware of the Spanish arrival in Cuba via Totonac traders.
Also, there was a Spaniard shipwrecked on the southern Yucatan coast,
who "went native" and refused to return to the Spaniards.
He WROTE them a note relaying his refusal.

Then there was the conquests of Tenochtitlan and Cholula.
All of these occurred well before the later Spanish arrival in force in the Yucatan.
Therefore a translation of the Yucatec glyphs into latin letters in 1544 is likely.
Also, the "prophecies' of the main Spanish arrival are no mysteries either.

Perhaps the dates for the epidemics may throw some light on this problem,
the one at the time of the conquest of Tenochtitlan,
and the one ca 1537,
but there also appears to have been an outbreak of Hanta around 1275 CE.

3) Apparently, Chac Xib Chac was associated with the arrival of the Itza in Petan.
This may be either one of the Holder ups of the sky, ("Holder of the Heavens" has nice poetic ring)
or his priest during a katun. This has Gussenheimer stumped, as do the Ah Musen Cab materials.
I will be discussing this later in some depth.
We'll see...

Re: Atlanitic ocean impact tsunami's

PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 7:01 am
by E.P. Grondine
and today's notes:

4) The Toltec calendar differed from the Mayan Calendar: The "correct" day count in one would be different than the "correct" day count in the other.
Unfortunately since my stroke I can not handle the basics of any of them , little alone dance around in them.
Further, given the cyclic view of time, trying to convert the records into a linear narrative is extremely, extremely difficult.

Gussenheimer. What a name for a great Yukatec scholar.
My guess is that he'll end up being known as "Andy", at least in the field, [wrong there]
unless "antje"is some dutch spelling of "angie". [which is the case]
I'd pay a peso to hear a native spanish speaker trying to pronounce "Gussenheimer" from the letters. 8)

Germany spends a part of its taxes supporting churches,
and part of this ends up in text source and evolution studies.
Apply the resulting apparats to the Chilam Balam accounts,
and there you have it.

[I dread to think of the number of papers in German on Ugarit and the Old Testament. :| ]

Gussenheiler's paper really needs good English and Spanish translations, made free via the internet.
(I am delighted that University Microfilms' monopoly on thesis has been destroyed.)

The only text analysis technique I could use at the time of my initial survey were the authors' statements about themselves,
and their statements concerning the tale of Ah Musen Cab
and their statements about the earlier magic rites.
But those turn out to be among the most powerful.

Re: Atlanitic ocean impact tsunami's

PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:10 am
by E.P. Grondine
Why is the tale of ah musen cab so powerful for text analysis?

Well, most northern personal or national codixes begin with a statement of the mythic past -
creation, evolution of the gods, etc.
These make the following family or national epics "true".
[The early European print equivalent was Patron name, Patron title, and year of Our Lord date.]

I think that the same thing held for some Mayan "historical" codices,
and thus the placement of the Ah Musen Cab materials in relationship to the "chronicles" in the Books of the Chilam Balam
is one apparat without parallel in the analysis of biblical texts.
Also, given that these materials were/are absolutely "heathen" in nature,
the translators, writers and editors way of handling those materials is highly diagnostic.

As for the period of the writing of the Books of the Chilam Balam,
there is a brief period during the conquest process
when knowledge of the lands and the enmities among its' peoples is vital,
particularly when you have a small force.
The same thing holds In the "evangelization" process,
when Christian missionaries have to rely on persuasion rather than force.
In Mexico you also have land holding, who has title to the land and is responsible for payiing taxes to their Spanish over-lords,
and later who has real title to the lands.

The dates for the initial translations appear to be around 1540,
with later copies made in response to revolts, and antiquarian interest.

For other methods of attacking the analysis of texts, see here: ... ry-theory/
under Marxist and Deconstruction.

Once again, Gussenheimer's work is the new standard.
Things have come a long, long way in the last 40 years.

My first guess is that the ashes from Landa's fire of the codices were thrown in the outhouses,
but who knows?

The reason for my intense interest in these documents will become apparent shortly.

Re: Atlanitic ocean impact tsunami's

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:20 am
by E.P. Grondine
A small reward for indulging me so far:


Hello Benny -

In recent weeks we have been greeted with repeated announcements of the reduction in funds available to NEO (Near Earth Object) programs, as governments whose revenues are coming under stress due to the economic slowdown seek to economize. In view of these developments, which trend is likely to continue for at least the next couple of years, perhaps it is time to re-consider the use of the ancient Mayan technique for dealing with the hazard of asteroid and comet impact, specifically that of human sacrifice.

Now many in the scientific community may scoff at the idea and dismiss it out of hand, but as the Mayan priests pointed out, once they began human sacrifice, they were never again pounded by the sky gods. So by inductive demonstration, the technique appears to work. It has the further advantage of being an extremely low cost scheme to put into operation, as it requires no payment for any telescopes, electronic devices, computers, or staff, and even less payment for the bureaucrats who manage these programs.

Of course, one does run into the problem of obtaining human sacrificial victims. While the Mayan resolved this problem by sacrificing their unwanted, literally their poor bastards, given the current economic conditions and the prevalence of extra-marital sex, such a plan may not gain wide public support today. But perhaps a ready solution to this problem may lie immediately at hand, specifically, in the use of lawyers as human sacrificial victims.

To my knowledge I do not believe that anyone in the NEO community has ever previously considered the use of lawyers for this purpose. What advantages does the use of lawyers as human sacrificial victims bring, aside from the fact that there appears to be an over-abundant supply of them? Well, first off, they seem to be universally despised, and this seems to be true in every nation. Given the international scope of the NEO effort, it is nice to find a common point about which the citizens of most nations can agree.

Second, lawyers could easily be captured for this purpose by the simple technique of placing a newspaper advertisement seeking an attorney for a lawsuit against a wealthy corporation. Once obtained, my understanding is that lawyers may usually be sedated by the administration of flavored alcoholic beverages.

Of course, one problem with the plan may lie in ripping their beating hearts out out of their living bodies, as it is widely reported that lawyers have no hearts. On the other hand, it is also widely reported that lawyers have no feelings, and this may make the entire process somewhat easier to accomplish, in the case that lawyers can indeed be found who have hearts.

In the case where it does turn out that lawyers indeed do not have hearts, then that does not necessarily mean that the scheme of using human sacrifice to fend off the next asteroid or comet impact must be abandoned. It is still possible that the scheme could be realized by the use of government bureaucrats instead.

Yours in science,

Re: Atlanitic ocean impact tsunami's

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:08 am
by circumspice
Billy Carter proposed killing all the lawyers decades ago EP... You brought your proposal to the table late... :lol:

Re: Atlanitic ocean impact tsunami's

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:00 pm
by E.P. Grondine
Hi spice -
And here I thought it was Shakespeare.
Just goes to show you, great minds think alike. 8)

Thanks for letting me store my little worknotes here.
I keep on misplacing them on my own home computer.
Can't even find with with the OS search tools.
Perhaps Tiompan (George) could arrange for a really skilled Mayan scholar to stop by.

Re: Atlanitic ocean impact tsunami's

PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:23 pm
by E.P. Grondine
Its Easter, and I have arisen from Gussenheimer's thesis.
Given my now very limited German, and my excitement with it, I will now start a review before moving on.
It's like savoring a really fine meal.

Gussenheimer ENTIRELY missed the significance of the Ah Musen Cab fragments,
as well as the attempted defacement of the glyphs on pg 21 in the Chilam Balam of Chumayel.
(I have this feeling that if Knorosov had of seen that page, they'd be able to read Mayan hieroglyphic quite well by now.
Some of the missing Chilam Balam manuscripts may have been lost or destroyed, contents of the Prussian State Library.)

Combined with "Chac Xib Chac", that means there will be plenty of work for future doctoral candidates on these texts.

4 Chilam Balam texts are now lost, and it is possible that some of them may have been stolen,
and may possibly turn up somewhere someday.
[The papers of Abbe de Bourbourg and particularly Le Plongeon may provide some leads on this.]
G. also did not have available paper types, including perhaps watermarks.
G'.'s map of manuscript locations needs to be improved to reflect these now missing manuscripts.

I really like G.'s use of brackets for other texts' original dates, with modern year and page number for edition.
I wish G. had used it consistently - bracket date first, followed by edition year. and page number.

I differ with one very essential way -
see my gloss for the TITLE "Chilam Balam" in my essay "Going into the Water".
G. does get close on page 12.
THE Chilam Balam and his 4 aids are key here.
The 4 aids handled the 4 directions - "Ba Cab",
"Chil" is very very very roughly analogous to "Holy".
One family claiming the title "balam" makes sense in the Spanish colonial context.

(Perhaps the Theodora was first included to account for Spanish men marrying Yukatek women or taking them as mistresses.)

(It turns out its Dr. Angie, not Andy. In my gender neutral way, I'll continue with G.
It's not that I'm such an advanced man - its simply that "G." takes fewer keystrokes.)

Since the Katun "prophecies" were based on actually occurring events in earlier katuns,
perhaps historical materials can be recovered from them.
Those passages could serve as the basis for another thesis of text analysis,
in contrast to G.'s use of Chronicles for text analysis.

I differ with G. on this as well - its not the "Fire Ceremony",
its either the "New Fire Ceremony", or Fire-Walking Ceremony.
And this greatly differs from the ceremonies for the Sacrifice of the Heart, and the Seating of the Katun.

Quetzalcoatl is both a god's name and title in Toltec - see Malloy.
Its use in the Chilam Balam texts is diagnostic.

G. notes that most scholars propose two migrations of northern peoples into the Peten:
one at the fall of Teotihuacan,
another with the rise of the Toltec.

With the breaking of Mixtec hieroglyphic by Caso,
and the constantly improving reading of it,
those texts may soon be used as a check on the contents of the Chilam Balam texts,
both chronicles and katun prophecies.
There is also the continually improving reading of the Chol Mayan classical inscriptions.

(A GPR survey of Cholula to recover murals with toponyms or personal names there is a very high high priority.)

Then we have the erased glyphs on page 21 of the Chilam Balam of Chumayel,
which should key into the surviving codices.

Yes, understanding the role of Quetzalcoatl/Kulkulcan in the katun prophesies is very essential to the gestalt.
And to their timing, and the correlation problems.

[I think I've mentioned many times before here that all in all I'd rather be troweling through tsunami debris on Crete.
Its a beautiful sunny day, and here I am struggling through a thesis in German.
But determining where impacts occurred, and exactly when,
is vital to working out the orbital mechanics of both previous and possibly potential impactors.
There are many lives at stake, so onward.
You know, I did not sign up to be a martyr.
I a simply working as hard as I now can on a very serious hazard that most people either do not know, do not think, or deny exists, even after Chelyabinsk. ... -asteroid/

Also in the news, a story in which some people who do not know the mechanics of impact tsunami's share their ignorance,
and a story about "moisture" killing off the mammoth.]

Re: Atlanitic ocean impact tsunami's

PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:09 pm
by E.P. Grondine
The earlier translations of the Ah Musen Cab accounts that I used for my early 2002 survey are now known to be seriously defficient.
That said, you read a lot of nonsense about bee's, venus and damp earth now. ... ab&f=false ... ab&f=false

This passage is particularly good: ... ab&f=false
and clearly shows Christian censorship.
note especially Ti-ku and the relationship between the Flower People and the Itza.

Bolles' 2003 translation of his reconstructed text:

Muchas gracias, Senor y Senora Bolles.
Adios, Anjela

Re: Atlanitic ocean impact tsunami's

PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:21 pm
by E.P. Grondine
As I will be discussing here, there were possibly 4 inundations of the Peten (Putun?)

1) The first of the Holocene Start Impacts (say 14,000 BCE) was on the Canadian Ice Sheet,
and the second of the Holocene Start Impact Events (10,800 BCE) started a general melting of the Canadian Ice Sheet.
The ressulting global rise in sea level flooded a large part of the Peten

2) One about 1,000 BCE.
page 12.
followed bt Tuscarora arrival with Kay stemmed ware.
end ca.1,000 BCE.

3) One about 585 CE:

4) Very possibly one about 1014 CE, and this my have played a role in the Itza conquest of the Peten. ... via%3Dihub

Anglo-Saxon Chronicles:
1014 AD – This year, on the eve of St. Michael’s day (September 28), came the great sea-flood,
which spread wide over this land, and ran so far up as it never did before, overwhelming many towns, and an innumerable multitude of people.

William of Malmesbury in The History of the English Kings (vol. 1): “A tidal wave, of the sort which the Greeks call euripus, grew to an astonishing size such as the memory of man cannot parallel, so as to submerge villages many miles inland and overwhelm and drown their inhabitants.” A sea flood is also mentioned in the Chronicle of Quedlinburg Abbey (Saxony), where it states many people died as a result of the flood in the Low Countries (Juteland, Holstein, Friesland, the Netherlands and Belgium) in 1014.

A sea flood is also mentioned in the Chronicle of Quedlinburg Abbey (Saxony), where it states many people died as a result of the flood in the Low Countries (Juteland, Holstein, Friesland, the Netherlands and Belgium) in 1014.

I do not know if these text materials were retrieved by Abbott or Kobres.
A lot of nuts made off with it around 2012, and its use continues in their circles today.
G. uses the term "nutz barkeit".

Remember that the Maya used inductive reasoning,
and thus had a cyclic view of time,
in addition to a gestalt and vocabulary entirely different than our modern one or any European one, in particular Spanish Colonial.
(Though a search for mention of Noah's Flood in the contact era Spanish documents might be very useful.)

Thus if impact caused one tsunami, it would have been viewed by the Maya as responsible for all of them.

And yes, I know that seismic activity can cause tsunami's, ... kridge.pdf
BUT SO CAN IMPACTS: ... teroid-spl

For later use: ... b_contents ... html#seven

Re: Atlanitic ocean impact tsunami's

PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:39 pm
by E.P. Grondine
Bolles has really helped.
The texts of the contact histories are on his site,
along with the text reconstructions and translations.

The situation may be succinctly summarized:
The Chilam Balam and his four subpriests who handled the four corners of the land,
professed their faith in Christianity,
and a translation of ancient texts was then made at that time.
(Then came the later edits and additions.)

Some of the texts seem very similar to northern Mixtec texts - The Wandering of the Itza, for example.
One big problem is identifying the calendar used for any text:
whether 24 year or 20 year.
Bolles goes with 24 year and uses it to reconstruct a history.
It will be interesting to check Bolles reconstruction 20 year katuns

Yukatec Maya (mayathan) was/is different than Chollan Maya, which further complicates matters.
And of course some of the histories were recorded/read out as "prophecies" of future events.
Cyclic time again.

I just bet that any day now,
the mesamerican scholars will realize that Itzamna and Kulkulcan were comets,
and that these peoples memories went clear back to the Holocene Start Impact Events,
and included other impact events as well.
Just any day now. :|

Oh F***k. :|
Bolles keeps repeating that the Kulkulcan/Quetzalcoatl cult was introduced by Nahuatl speakers from the north.
This is definitely and demonstrably not correct.

In fact, the ritual basis or the seating of stones to hold up the heavens goes back to just after Olmec (Nonoalco? Zoque?) times.
(Assuming two northern Nonoalco migrations from South America: one along the Gulf Coast, the other along the Pacific Ocean,
The Nonoalco speakers bringing domesticated crops and irrigation agriculture with them. - B mt DNA and D mt DNA.)

In the Popul Vuh, the men with wooden hearts (Olmec, Nonoalo) are washed away from the face of the Earth,
because they did not know the heart (in other words the heart sacrifice).

The northern cult and calendar out of Teotihuacan were significantly different than the southern one,
as can be seen from their "suns" or creations.
The southern cult appears to have started in the western highlands and moved info the Peten from there.
as can be seen from their stories of their "creations".
(Was "peten" a vaariant of "putun"?)

There were two migrations from the north in later times:the Greater and Lesser Descents.
One was Teotihaucan based, the other Toltec based.

The Itza were certainly not the first people in the Peten,
although they might have wished to claim so and re-written history, or taken over some else's,
or simply not considered the earlier inhabitants to be "people".

It may be useful to check the floors of the cenotes for stela erected by earlier people,
as those steal may have been thrown into the cenotes by later arrivals.

Bolles did not deal with the written materials with "strange" katun counts.

Two key sites to resolving these problems will be locating
the site of Chaktun Putun (roughly "The center of the Lands"),
and getting some toponyms from murals in Cholula.
The way to start at Cholula is with a GPR (Ground Penetrating Radar) survey.
and try to locate a feasting hall of some type.

Given the remains at Wupatki and Casa Grande,
There also should be one or several fully developed ceremonial complexes along the lower Colorado River
or along the shores of ancient Lake Coahela.
A LIDAR survey or Google Earth may help in locating the remains.

One bottom line in all of this is that all of these peoples saw the Holocene Start Impact Events,
and remembered them, and incorporated them into their cosmologies (particularly their creation "stories") and religions.

I much prefer Schele's "throne" to Bolle's "dais".