Problematic Discoveries

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Problematic Discoveries

Postby Springhead » Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:35 am

Hello,

I am new here but have been following this forum for several years. I have found seven sites in the Virginia Blue Ridge, the North Carolina sand hills, and the coast of North Carolina. These sites exhibit an apparently undiscovered assemblage of tools with art and rock art to include two limestone caves with wall and ceiling art. One site has terrace complexes, terraced springs, cairns, building foundations, and large boulders with art. An archaeologist with great tool experience (ca.35 books on prehistoric tools) has reviewed many of the finds from this site. He picked out tools with art that he characterized as Pleistocene. No Holocene tools have been discovered on this site in my 43 years of ownership.

This particular site is a mountain setting in the Blue Ridge adjacent to two mountain gaps with abundant water and the convergence of four different rock formations on intersecting faults to include an old (570 mya) series of lava flows. A knoll feature on the mountainside has solstice and equinox alignments with local topography. The foot of the mountain is 13.5 miles via water to the James River as it enters the Blue Ridge from the west. The site is strategically located within a few miles of the eastern edge of the Shenandoah Valley. There are three other sites within four miles including the two caves.

The artifacts from all seven sites have similar subject matter but varying material sources related to location, though some materials were obviously transported to the sites (i.e. use of hiddenite on the coast). The subject matter exhibited on these stones is conveyed through subtle and semi abstract representations through sculpture, relief carving, intaglio, and painting
using iron oxide derived ochres, etc. There are portraits of people and animals, landscape paintings, and everyday life scenes. Many extinct ice age animals are shown to include mammoth, camel, horse, auroch, giant deer, and so on. Also seen are interglacial species such as crocodile, hippo, and gorilla. Modern day animals are also shown, such as the dog, turtle, snakes, monkeys, foxes, wolves, whales, dolphins, and other fish. The people look like Neandertals or hybrids with red, blond, and brown hair. They are well dressed and groomed with boots, buttons, jewelry, hats, and robes, dresses, and pants. Their habitations vary from stone based teepee type structures to multi story stone buildings with windows, doors, and flues.

At this juncture I may have already lost all credibility with some folks, however the really controversial part follows. Without detailing, repeated images (hundreds) depict high technology. This, of course, fouls the water and threatens to undermine any credibility I might have left. My unpapered idea is that perhaps these occupations ended some 12,900 ya with the theorized comet strike in NA.

I have thousands of suspected artifacts now in sizes from .5 CM to five ton boulders. Most pieces were surface collected and have no context other than local. The large boulders with art are in situ, I expect, and may have more chance to provide context. On smaller pieces, micro carving and painting is beyond belief, and in my opinion could not be duplicated by any living artist. Overall, this assemblage representing an extensive occupation/s begs for professional analysis, yet the nature of the material may subject the discovery to untouchable status. The good news for me is that I can visit these folks at will and simply feel lucky to have chanced upon it all.
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Re: Problematic Discoveries

Postby Springhead » Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:04 am

Hi Lily,

Thank you for the welcome and suggestions. Yes, there is a lot of work for me with this project. The mountain site alone conservatively covers 400 acres of complex topography. Past logging operations and construction of a pond have had negative effects on the site, but overall the terrain is pretty undisturbed. No digging has been done related to the finds and it will remain that way until more is understood. Documentation and imaging are a challenge with the scale and scope of things, not to mention I live 320 miles from the place. I have a good number of images, but clearly capturing the detail of the micro images has eluded me and overwhelmed my equipment capabilities. I do not yet have a GPS, but it's on the list. As usual, funding is a major roadblock.

With four of the seven sites close to one another in Virginia, I am focusing there for now. The North Carolina sites are less defined but have produced some extremely interesting artifacts. I recently read about possible cave art representations of an erupting volcano that is being analyzed in Spain, I think. This is a common subject in my suspected artifacts from various sites. Many of the finds are similar to middle to late Pleistocene artifacts found in Europe that have context and authenticity with continental archaeologists. Here the resistance to these types of possible artifacts is intense and they are discounted as geofacts. How natural forces could paint a portrait as a stone falls off some cliff is an immediate question in my mind.

As soon as I understand the posting process, I will throw in a few images representative of the many surface finds and an in situ boulder. I appreciate your interest.
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Re: Problematic Discoveries

Postby Minimalist » Wed Jan 20, 2016 12:26 pm

Sounds potentially consistent with Goodyear's Topper site in South Carolina and really not that far away geographically in relative terms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topper_Site

Can you interest a local university archaeology department? Without a controlled excavation it will be hard to get much traction. Maybe post a couple of photos?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Re: Problematic Discoveries

Postby Springhead » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:54 pm

Minimalist,

Some of these suspected artifacts are similar to the Topper artifacts from the deeper levels such as the bird shaped stone. I have made no contacts yet with a university other than telephone inquiries. The university where I live has expressed a willingness to check them out, and I am in the process of deciding what to show them. Most archaeologists here are not trained to see or analyze these types of artifacts, so it could be an uphill climb.

I am unable to upload any image files yet as they are "invalid," so I'm trying to get that process understood. I'll post a few when I am able. My files are in my computer and not stored remotely, so I may need to change that. Thanks for your response.
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Re: Problematic Discoveries

Postby E.P. Grondine » Wed Jan 20, 2016 6:28 pm

Try looking up "confirmatory bias".

Remember that many people lived in North America for many ages.

Remember also that many people fake artifacts,and it is a real industry.
Others fake artifacts.

After cinsidering this, you might want to contact the local chapter of the
Archaeological Society of Virginia.

Is your site on the road between Lynchburg and Natural Bridge?
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
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Re: Problematic Discoveries

Postby Minimalist » Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:05 pm

Try photobucket.com/ It's a free hosting site and once you upload your desired files it will give you an [Img] link which you can paste into a post you put on the forum. You can then send those files to anyone else you like. Also, with photographs it is very helpful to put something in the picture to give it some scale. A ruler is ideal or perhaps a coin.


I remember when Charlie Hatchett was here that he would classify as an artifact only those "tools" which had at least six flakes chipped off. This was to discourage the claim that such flaking could be done by "natural processes."
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Re: Problematic Discoveries

Postby Minimalist » Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:08 pm

Also, as another thought, see if you can get a letter of introduction from that tool specialist. It might help get you in the door at a university or state archaeological society.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Re: Problematic Discoveries

Postby Springhead » Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:35 am

I thank everyone for their comments and suggestions.

Lily,

Fortunately I have been able to borrow a SLR Canon camera. Two limiting factors are that the Canon only has 8 MP and a 50-100 mm zoom lens. A macro zoom lens would be nice. I also purchased a 16 MP point and shoot which has been more useful as it has a minimum focal distance of 8-10" at 16 MP. This allows the images to be zoomed in on the computer for analysis. This camera also has a microscope setting where the minimum focal distance is 1 cm. Unfortunately the MP's drop to 1-2 on that setting, so micro images cannot be zoomed in on much. I have a tripod which I use to shoot rocks at home. I have perhaps a thousand images in my computer files, with about 10% of them good enough to demonstrate with.

I would characterize my status as rank in the amateur archaeologist world, but I appreciate your thought. As to alternatives I am unclear about your statement.

E.P.G.,

Confirmatory bias is an issue in all human endeavors I suspect and could probably be designated as human nature. This is an easy thing to fall victim to, and perhaps I have, but bias could imply agenda, and not being a professional I am not sure what my agenda might be other than bringing these finds to light. I have my ideas based on observation of the suspected artifacts, and were I totally satisfied with these ideas, I would not reach out for assistance and perspective. Your comment is very relevant to this situation, and I will keep it close as a cautionary marker.

Yes, a lot has happened with humanity over the ages. With no Holocene finds in 43 years on the mountain site, I am simply steered toward what has been found. With an experienced archaeologist's designation of Pleistocene age to the artifacts, I feel that I am on a legitimate path.

There are many fake artifacts out there, but the finds here are so old, patinated, water worn, and subject to an acid environment, it would surprise me that someone could or would try subterfuge, not to mention with an assemblage that is largely unknown and extremely difficult to identify in the first place.

The archaeologist I am working with has a 40 year career and is very involved in Virginia archaeology.

My site is not on what I assume is route 501, but it is in the neighborhood to the north.

Minimalist,

I am going to work on getting images to Photobucket, thanks for the tip. My computer service is slow, so I may need to edit my images and only send out the good ones.

I will get a letter of introduction from my assisting archaeologist. That's a good idea to help getting my foot in the door at an institution. This archaeologist also uses the six chip idea to designate "provable" Pleistocene artifacts. Due to age and wear, it is often difficult to see the chipping clearly depending on where the rock was found. Many are in spring branch beds and springheads.

Lily,

A picture is certainly worth a thousand words, and at this point imaging is the highest hurdle to clear with this project other than the constraints of time.

I will work to get these responses in better format with quotes in the future.
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Re: Problematic Discoveries

Postby Minimalist » Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:33 pm

Good luck and by all means try to keep the location secret. You don't want amateurs stumbling all over the site before the professionals decide if they want to take a look at it.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Location: Arizona

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Postby Springhead » Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:59 am

Lily,

Thank you for all the technical advice with digital equipment. This will help me get organized to properly record the mountain of potential artifacts and site characteristics. I did not grow up with any digital background, so the curve is steep for me in those matters. I am currently working to upload images to photobucket so I can get them to this board. I will have to re photograph tool finds to focus on form rather than art. I understand that tools are the key to establishing the nature of this assemblage. Most of my photographic work has centered around micro images which has rendered mixed results.

Minimalist,

Thanks for the encouragement with the project. I am currently keeping a lid on the location for the reasons you stated. One advantage with poachers is the nature of the suspected artifacts. They do not jump out at you. I collected many of them over the last 43 years as interesting and exotic stones without realizing what I had in front of me. About three or four years ago I began to catch on to their significance. I was attracted to the stones for the same reasons these ancient folks were....their mineral and crystal attributes. The quantity of suspected artifacts is staggering and very widespread.
Springhead
 
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Re: Problematic Discoveries

Postby E.P. Grondine » Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:16 pm

Well, springhead, its nice to know you found someone to help you.
He'll know how to network you.

501 would have been a wonderful place to ambush mammoth, if the mammoth used that route.

I suppose you already know about the salt licks running up and down the Valley.
There were almost certainly gaps to the fauinas'' coastal migration routes.

Deer now run annually between the Mountains and the coast.
There was a route for bison along the Potomac River.

Given the problems that I have been working on, in Virginia I have interests in sites from other eras.

Good luck, and keep us updated - there is always PM here to circulate information you do not want to share publicly.
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
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Re: Problematic Discoveries

Postby kbs2244 » Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:08 pm

Or he can just erase the xif data on all his PICs
There are a number of free ways to do it
Just search on "erase .xif"
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Re: Problematic Discoveries

Postby Minimalist » Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:19 pm

We don't need HD photos to see what the OP is talking about and professionals are going to want to see the actual artifacts anyway.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Minimalist
 
Posts: 15420
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Problematic Discoveries

Postby Springhead » Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:42 am

Lily,

Thanks again for the suggestions about improving image quality with the suspected artifacts, especially in micro images where I have encountered the daily lives and history of these ancient folks. I may be able to convey this a bit with on hand images, but I have no idea how the clarity will be affected moving through digital landscapes. One fairly sharp image I have shows a composition that is .25 square inches in size, and I hope this will demonstrate my challenge. Much of the art is smaller than this.

Minimalist,

I have been having difficulties with Photobucket. I put in a long uploading session, and when I went back to the site I was unable to log in. Then I started a new account and uploaded the images again. When I went to log on this morning to post images to the board, I could not get logged in again. There is no apparent administrator for the site, so I am a bit frustrated at this point. Any suggestions? I want to give you guys something to chew on.

E.P.G.,

Yes, 501 along the James River would be a great place to corner a mammoth, though I am glad I don't have to do that to get a bite. I have been told of a manmade large fauna funnel trap that is findable in the northern Shenandoah/Blue Ridge area. It would certainly be useful to understand ancient faunal movements in the valley and mountain areas to try to come up with a kill site. I think one kill site has been discovered in SW Virginia around Saltville.

Do you mind me asking the nature and rough location of your work in Virginia?

I may need to use PM's as I progress through my project due to complications mentioned in my initial post.

kbs,

I never realized one could track your work so easily through the xif feature. It's becoming a full time job to cover your tracks in this world, but it's a necessity, especially with sensitive data. Part of me wants to return to pad, pencil, and land line.
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Re: Problematic Discoveries

Postby Minimalist » Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:23 pm

Try uploading a couple of pictures one at a time instead of the bulk loader. Once your album is established you should be able to add to it.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Minimalist
 
Posts: 15420
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

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