The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Postby Minimalist » Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:01 am

And to insist that bullshit is true because you oh-so-desperately want to believe in bullshit is hardly great intellectualism on your part.

Stories stolen and embellished from the Sumerians, son. Deal with it.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Postby Minimalist » Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:07 am

Swanz wrote:Question Sir,

I need to find North and South American coastal sea levels circa 4000 - 5000 BP. Also concerned with condition of the Drake Passage at this period.

I'll appreciate help on where to find this info, since I am not having a lot of luck.

Thanks,
Ed




Try searching for Dr. Glen Milne. He did a series of inundation studies for Graham Hancock and while Hancock usually catches hell I haven't seen anyone challenge Milne's work on sea-level rise in the aftermath of the last ice age. I'm going from memory here but I think it gets pretty close to the period you are looking for.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Postby Swanz » Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:36 pm

Thank you
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Postby uniface » Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:41 pm

Stories stolen and embellished from the Sumerians, son. Deal with it.


Stolen by Chinese people, Australians, Native Americans, Africans and everybody else in the world.

You -- literally -- can't distangle yourself enough from the map of history you have in your imagination to approach actual history as anything other than its projection. Complete with embedded value judgements.

Same problem the 19th century Manifest Destiny yahoos had with the NAs. They saw only what they wanted to see.
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Postby uniface » Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:41 pm

There is a classic example of exactly that today in the Mammoth Corridor article Cogito linked to in the Old World forum:

The Lovewell Mammoth I site was excavated in 1969 by Kansas State Historical Society archaeologists at Lovewell Reservoir (Holen 2006; 2007; S. Holen and K. Holen 2011). Evidence of possible human association reported by the initial excavators included spirally fractured limb bone, stacked bone, and the skull and tusks oriented with the tusks pointing toward the axial skeleton. Unfortunately, after a consulting geologist reported that the site was more than 100,000 years old the archaeologists abandoned the excavation and did not collect the skeleton.

https://anthromamadotcom.files.wordpres ... es2014.pdf
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sat Jan 16, 2016 3:52 pm

uni, same message:
in the ancient past there have been many floods at many places at many different times.
Some of them were caused by impact, some not.
Only a person with poor judgement such as yourself would try to equate them all to the flood of Noah mentioned in the Bible.

While there are specialists in the Ancient Near East who are working their way through ANE flood accounts,
they do not find foolish ramblings entertaining, and prefer not to be disturbed by them.

uni, there were many impact mega-tsunamis in the recent past,
and lumping them all together is not only very stupid, it is dangerous.
The problem is to accurately estimate and define the impact hazard.
Doing this is actually precision work, work upon which millions of lives depend.
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Postby Minimalist » Sat Jan 16, 2016 6:21 pm

Stolen by Chinese people, Australians, Native Americans, Africans and everybody else in the world.



You don't pretend that their "stories" are the word of god, uni. In fact, I'm sure you think your god is real but theirs are false.

All I can say is that god is one shitty writer. And a plagiarizer too.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Postby uniface » Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:32 am

I invite you guys to evolve beyond the capitalist/communist, Lutheran/Romanist religious-political mindset in which every detail of one paradigm must be defended and promulgated at all costs, with everything "the opposition" says denied and "debunked" by reflex action without taking so much as a moment to consider whether there might be some truth in it. Treating individual scientific nuts-&bolts as if they were political talking points only turns what could be a discussion along scientific lines into more politics.

Want proof of that in your own words ? Go back and read (this time paying attention) what I actually said: that any tradition with a worldwide distribution almost certainly has something substantial behind it (i.e., ancestral memories of cataclysmic deluges). You responded that the Bible was bunk and I was wrong to believe in it. Because that's the way the matter's arranged in your minds -- as a cowboy western that the name "Noah" triggered.

You're dogmatic True Believers and don't realize it. Only what you believe in boils down to dissection -- to perpetual analysis without synthesis.

Authentic science drops preconceptions and starts out fresh every time something new isn't accounted for (or is incongruous with) previous assumptions. The bullshit you guys pedal (in fairness, EP only occasionally) is defending the paradigm at all costs. Talking with you is like talking to Moonies. In both cases, you realize that you're trying to have a discussion with tape recorders in playback mode.

The above written not so much in the hope that you're going to "get" that simple, elemental distinction as to elucidate what's involved for the sake of the people watching from the sidelines who have evaded the conditioning we are immersed in enough that it can register.
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:10 pm

uni, I am very careful with floods, tsunamis, and impacts.

The sure sign of someone new to the field is that they are not:
they generally elide different events together.
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Postby uniface » Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:44 pm

Which

1) I do not deny

and

2) has no bearing on my point.
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sun May 01, 2016 8:05 am

Hi all -

Cevin Q recently posted this collection of ehtnographic materials over at the Cosmic Tusk web site.
He did not source them, but I want to post a working copy of them here
so that I can source them
and sort them to the appropriate Holocene Start impact event

I have a nice joke to share: Years ago, I took an introduction to anthropology course in California.
The professor had us read "Ishi. Last of his Tribe" and told us that all of the first peoples of California were extinct.

editing starts now

REH,
The native Californians have host of stories that fall about the flood and the sun being obscured.

1)From the mythology of the multi ethnic Yosemite (they were a mix of Miwok, Mono, and Yokuts)

“This was’ the beginning of a series of calamities which nearly destroyed the great tribe of Ah-wah-nee’-chees.
First a great drought prevailed, and the crops failed, and the streams of water dried up.
The deer went wild and wandered away.

Then a dark cloud of smoke arose in the East and obscured the sun, so that it gave no heat, and many of the people perished from cold and hunger.
Then the earth shook terribly and groaned with great pain, and enormous rocks fell from the walls around Ah-wah’-nee.
The great dome called Tis-sa’-ack was burst asunder, and half of it fell into the Valley.
A fire burst out of the earth in the East, and the ca’-lah (snow) on the sky mountains was changed to water,
which flowed down and formed the Lake Ah-wei’-yah. 1
And all the streams were filled to overflowing, and still the waters rose, and there was a great flood, so that a large part of the Valley became a lake, and many persons were drowned.

After a time the Great Spirit took pity on his children, and the dark cloud of smoke disappeared, the sun warmed the Valley again into new life, and the few people who were left had plenty of food once more.”

@) From the Bay Miwok of the northern Sacramento/San Joaquin Delta and clear lake area.
From the story, “HOW SAH’-TE SET THE WORLD ON FIRE”

“When Sah’-te came home he found that his beads were gone. “Who stole my beads?” he asked.

He then took his yah’-tse [the stick the people used to wear crossways in a twist of their back hair] and stood it up in the fire, and oo’-loop the flame climbed it and stood on the top. He then took the yah’-tse with the flame at one end and said he would find out who stole his shell money. First he pointed it to the north, but nothing happened; then to the west, and nothing happened; then east; then up; then down, and still nothing happened. Then he pointed it south toward Tu’-le-yo’-me and the flame leaped from the stick and spread swiftly down the east side of Lower Lake, burning the grass and brush and making a great smoke.

In the evening Wek’-wek came out of the roundhouse at Tu’-le-yo’-me and saw the country to the north on fire. He went in and told his grandfather that something was burning on Clear Lake.

Ol’-le the Coyote-man answered, “That’s nothing; the people up there are burning tules.”

Ol’-le knew what Wek’-wek had done, and knew that Sah’-te had sent the fire, for Ol’-le was a magician and knew everything, but he did not tell Wek’-wek that he knew.

After a while Wek’-wek came out again and looked at the fire and saw that it was much nearer and was coming on swiftly. He was afraid, and went back and told his grandfather that the fire was too near and too hot and would soon reach them. After a little he went out again and came back and said, “Grandfather, the fire is coming fast; it is on this side of the lake and is awfully hot.”

Ol’-le answered, “That’s nothing; the people at Lower Lake are burning tules.”

But now the roar and heat of the fire were terrible, even inside the roundhouse, and Wek’-wek thought they would soon burn. He was so badly frightened that he told his grandfather what he had done. He said, “Grandfather, I stole Sah’-te’s hoo’-yah and put it in the creek, and now I’m afraid we shall burn.”

Then Ol’-le took a sack and came out of the roundhouse and struck the sack against an oak tree, and fog came out. He struck the tree several times and each time more fog came out and spread around.

Then he went back in the house and got another sack and beat the tree, and more fog came, and then rain. He said to Wek’-wek, “It is going to rain for ten days and ten nights.” And it did rain, and the rain covered the whole country till all the land and all the hills and all the mountains were under water–everything except the top of Oo-de’-pow-we (Mount Konokti, on the west side of Clear Lake) which was so high that its top stuck out a little.

There was no place for Wek’-wek to go and he flew about in the rain till he was all tired out. Finally he found the top of Oo-de’-pow-we and sat down on it and stayed there.

On the tenth day the rain stopped, and after that the water began to go down and each day the mountain stood up higher. Wek’-wek stayed on the mountain about a week, by which time the water had gone down and the land was bare again.”

3)From the Soboba (of the Tehachapi Mountains of South central California) creation myth.

“”Before my people came here they lived far, far away in the land that is in the heart of the Setting Sun. But Siwash, our great God, told Uuyot, the warrior captain of my people, that we must come away from this land and sail away and away in a direction that he would give us. Under Uuyot’s orders my people built big boats and then with Siwash himself leading them, and with Uuyot as captain, they launched these into the ocean and rowed away from the shore. There was no light on the ocean, Everything was covered with a dark fog, and it was only by singing as they rowed that the boats were enabled to keep together.

“It was still dark and foggy when the boats landed on the shores of this land, and my ancestors groped about in the darkness, wondering why they had been brought hither. Then, suddenly, the heavens opened, and lightnings flashed and thunders roared and rains fell, and a great earthquake shook all the earth. Indeed, all the elements of the earth, ocean, and heaven, seemed to be mixed up together, and, with terror in their hearts and silence on their tongues, my people stood still awaiting what would happen further. Though no voice had spoken they knew something was going to happen, and they were breathless in their anxiety to know what it was.

Then they turned to Uuyot and asked him what the raging of the elements meant. Gently he calmed their fears and bade them be silent and wait. As they waited, a terrible clap of thunder rent the very heavens, and the vivid lightnings revealed the frightened people huddling together as a pack of sheep. But Uuyot stood alone, brave and fearless, facing the storm and daring the anger of Those Above. With a loud voice he cried out ‘Wit-i-a-ko!’ which signified ‘Who’s there? What do you want?’

“But there was no response. The heavens were silent! the earth was silent! The ocean was silent! All nature was silent!

“Then with a voice full of tremulous sadness and loving yearning for his people Uuyot said: ‘My children, my own sons and daughters, something is wanted of us by Those Above. What it is I know not. Let us gather together and bring “pivat,” and with it make the big smoke and then dance and dance until we are told what is wanted.” So the people brought pivat–a native tobacco that grows in Southern California–and Uuyot brought the big ceremonial pipe which he had made out of rock, and he soon made the big smoke and blew the smoke up into the heavens while he urged the people to dance. They danced hour after hour until they grew tired, and Uuyot smoked all the time, but still he urged them to dance.

“Then he called out again to Those Above, ‘Wit-i-a-ko!’ but still could obtain no response. This made him sad and disconsolate, and when the people saw Uuyot despondent and downhearted they became panic-stricken, and ceased to dance, and began to cling around him for comfort and protection. But poor Uuyot had none to give. He himself was saddest and most forsaken. of all, and he got up and bade the people leave him alone, as he wished to walk to and fro by himself. Then he made the people smoke and dance, and when they rested they knelt in a circle and prayed. But he walked away by himself, feeling keenly the refusal of Those Above to speak to him. His heart was deeply wounded.

“But as the people prayed and danced and sang, a gentle light came stealing into the sky from the far, far east. Little by little the darkness was driven away. First the light was gray, then yellow, then white, and at last the glistening brilliancy of the sun filled all the land and covered the sky with glory. The sun had arisen for the first time, and in its light and warmth my people knew they had the favor of Those Above, and they were contented.”

This story roughly parallels the Hawaiian creation story
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sun May 01, 2016 8:15 am

And Dennis Cox chimes in with his usual load of horseshit:

Re: The Indian tale about Yosemite Valley.

That story could not possibly relate to events connected to the YDB. This is because there is a 700 year hiatus in human occupation of California that shows up the archeological record. And which begins with the YD. So any native oral traditions from California are passed down after people repopulated Ca. And by people who weren’t there during the ice age, or the beginning of the YD.

The valley was full of ice during the ice ages until about 10,000 YA. The earliest humans in the Valley didn’t show up until 4,000 to 6,000 YA

Note that the Indian stories make no mention of glaciers filling the valleys.

The missing half of half dome cannot be accounted for by the amount of rock in the talus piles at it’s base. So contrary to the imaginations of the first people in the Ahwanee, or “Deep Grassy Valley” Missing half didn’t just fall into the valley. It was broken off, and taken away by the Glaciers long before the Ahwaneechee, or Deep Grassy Valley People arrived. And that missing half can in fact be accounted for in the amount of rock in the terminal moraines at the valley’s mouth.

As for the part about monstrous fires to the east, and major earthquakes; that part rings true. Because the timing of the first people into the valley coincides with some major volcanic eruptions just a few miles to the east at Mammoth Mountain, and the Inyo Craters. The last eruption of the Long valley caldera was about 760,000 YA. So it’s off the suspect list.

On a time scale of millennia, and evidenced in the dendrochronological record, mega droughts lasting half a century, or more are typical climate fluctuations for California. And those droughts tend to be followed by floods of epic proportions.

Hope this helps.

~A California Hillbilly who grew up in them thar hills.

Shades of Ishi...
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sun May 01, 2016 11:31 am

A summary of the little I know about the Northern California peoples.

First - Back when I was in college, I spent a weekend at Clear Lake with a friend and her family.
Clear Lake was an ecological disaster, one of the first.
One of the more interesting items was local lore than an advanced civilization in the area had been destroyed and buried by a volcanic eruption.

Two - There was one of the last groves of redwoods left standing in the East Bay on the Berkeley campus.
Initially they had stood all along the East Bay,
but when first lumbered it actually changed the environment.
There was nothing to hold the fog, and the land dried out.
There was nothing to hold the thin topsoil, and it washed away.

The South Bay was dominated by the Alviso mud flats, which extended for miles.

One of the earliest Spanish settlments was a mercury mine at Los Gatos.
The mercury was used for silver extraction in Mexico.

There were only a few small shell mounds on islands in San Francisco Bay itself,
but no advanced civilization developed despite the abundant food sources.
The fact that San Francisco Bay is open to the Pacific Ocean,
as the Chesapeake Bay is to the Atlantic Ocean,
now leads me to suspect impact mega-tsunami along with earthquake tsunami.

We now know that irrigation agriculture spread from South America to Meso-America,
as evidenced by the Perepechua (Tarascan) Culture.
Metal casting and fine stone work technologies did as well.
But there was no spread into coastal California.
What the extent of the area of the Salton Sea
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Cahuilla)
and whether it was used for irrigation agriculture before it drained
is currently unknown.

On a final note, from a family friend in Virginia I learned that
during the First World War the lands of mission Indian peoples who lived north of Monterrey Bay
were seized to create an amphibious landing training base,
with the promise of their return when the base was shut down.
When the base was finally shut down the lands were not returned,
which is no surprise given their incredible real estate value.
This theft was bi-partisan, with both Democrats and Republicans getting their shares.

The decedents of those people got nothing.

I think that the proper word in English is "thieves",
but if any of you have any better suggestions, please feel free to share them.

http://www.montereyherald.com/article/Z ... /130528426
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Ord
http://www.denix.osd.mil/cr/upload/vol2.pdf
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Postby E.P. Grondine » Thu May 05, 2016 8:58 am

HOW SAH’-TE SET THE WORLD ON FIRE
comes from http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/ca/dow/dow27.htm
The source for the text was
The Dawn of the World, by C. Hart Merriam, 1910;
http://www.3rocks.org/publications/Dawn ... _World.pdf

"These tales were told me by the Indians of a single stock, the Mewan, the tribes of which are confined to central California
and have no known relatives in any part of the world. They have been little visited by ethnologists and during the few
years that have passed since the tales were collected, several of the tribes have become extinct.
"The myths are related by the old people after the first rains of the winter season, usually in the ceremonial roundhouse and always
at night by the dim light of a small flickering fire. They constitute the religious history of the tribe, and from time immemorial have been
handed down by word of mouth; from generation to generation they have been repeated, without loss and without addition."

Four different peoples' traditions were given in the book,
all of whom had related languages by this point in time.
The book is difficult to read, as sometimes the terms sometimes translated, other times not.
I am sure it will find popularity with the fringe, as it mentions "star women", who they will undoubtedly understand as "ancient aliens".

GIVEN THE NORMAL CLIMATIC VARIABILITY IN CALIFORNIA,
(IMPRTANT ENOUGH TO STUDY IN ITSEL)
I DOUBT IF THIS IS A TRADITION REMEMBERING THE HOLOCENE START IMPACTS.

HOW SAH'-TE SET THE WORLD ON FIRE
A TALE OF THE TU'-LE-YO-ME TRIBE

Among the low hills about four miles south of Clear Lake is the site of an ancient Indian settlement named Tu'-le-yo'-me poo-koot.
It was the ancestral home of the Tu'-le-yo'-me or O'-lā-yo-me tribe, the last vanishing remnant of which is now located on Putah Creek a few miles east of Middletown.

PERSONAGES

Ol'-le the Coyote-man
Wek'-wek the Falcon, grandson of Ol'-le
Hoo-yu'-mah the Meadowlark
Lah'-kah the Canada Goose
Sah'-te the Weasel-man, who set the world on fire
Hoo-poos'-min brothers, two, small Grebes or Hell-divers (Podilymbus podiceps)
We'-ke-wil'-lah brothers, two, little Shrews (Sorex) who stole the fire
Kah'-kah-te the Crow, whose fire was stolen by the We'-ke-wil'-lah brothers

PLACES

Tu'-le-yo'-me poo-koot - about four miles south of Clear Lake, the site of an ancient Indian settlement
Mel'-le-a-loo'-mah is the name of the hill-country south of Lower Lake--between Lower Lake and Coyote Valley.
oohnah -My informant pointed out this little old tree to me and said that when he was a little boy his father told him that it had always been there, just as it was in the days of Wek'-wek


DIFFERENT PEOPLES MEET

A LONG time ago, before there were any than people, Ol'-le the Coyote-man and his grandson, Wek'-wek the Falcon, lived together at Tu'-le-yo'-me.
In those days Wek'-wek hunted Hoo-yu'-mah the Meadowlark and ate no other game, and Ol'-le the Coyote-man ate nothing at all.

One day Wek'-wek said: "Grandfather, I want to see what is on the other side of Mel'-le-a-loo'-mah. (Between Lower Lake and Coyote Valley.)
I want to see the country on the other side."

"All right," answered Ol'-le.

So the next morning Wek'-wek set out and crossed over the Mel'-le-a-loo'-mah hills to Coyote Valley, and a little farther on came to a small lake called Wen'-nok pol'-pol,
at the south end of which was a pretty pointed mountain called Loo-peek'-pow-we.
On the lake were great numbers of ducks and geese.
Up to this time he had never killed any of these-he had killed only Hoo-yu'-mah the Meadowlark.

Wek'-wak went back to Tu'-le-yo'-me, and told his grandfather what he had seen, and asked how he could get the ducks and geese.
His grandfather answered: "A long time ago my father taught me how to make low'-ke the sling, and how to put loo'-poo the small stone in it, and how to aim and fire by swinging it around and letting fly."
Then Ol'-le took kol the tule and made a low'-ke of it for Wek'-wek.

The next morning Wek'-wek took the sling and small stone and went back to Wen'-nok-pol'-pol, the little lake,
and stood on top of Loo-peek'-pow-we the sharp-pointed mountain at the south end of the lake, from which he could see over all the valley.
The flat ground at the base of the mountain was covered with geese of the black-neck kind called Lah'-kah.
At the foot of the peak was a small flat-topped blue oak tree, the kind called moo-le.
When the geese, which were walking on the ground, came up to this tree, Wek'-wek took careful aim with his low'-ke and let fly and the stone flew down among them and killed more than two hundred, and then came back to his hand.
He at once fired again and killed several hundred more. He then gathered them all and packed them on his head back to Tu'-le-yo'-me and gave them to his grandfather, Ol'-le the Coyote-man.

Next morning when Wek'-wek was sitting on top of the roundhouse he saw someone coming.
It was Sah'-te the Weasel-man, who lives under the ground; he passed on to the south without stopping.
Wek'-wek said, "This looks like a man. Who is this man? Tomorrow morning I'll go and see."
So the next morning he went out again and sat on top of the roundhouse.
Soon he saw Sah'-te coming; he came from the north and went off to the south.
Then Wek'-wek also went south; he went to the sharp peak, Loo-peek'-pow'-we,
and saw Sah'-te pass and go still farther south.

Wek'-wek returned to Tu'-le-yo'-me and presently saw Sah'-te come and go north again toward Clear Lake.
Wek'-wek wanted to find out where Sah'-te lived, so he went up to Clear Lake and at the head of Sulphurbank Bay he found Sah'-te's roundhouse.
He said to himself, "Now I've got you," and went into Sah'-te's house.
But Sah'-te was not at home.
Wek'-wek looked around and saw a great quantity of hoo'-yah, THE SHELL BEADS OR MONEY.
It was in skin sacks.
He took these sacks--ten or twelve of them--and emptied the shell money out on a bear skin robe and packed it on his head back to Tu'-le-yo'-me.
But he did not take it in to show his grandfather; he hid it in a small creek near by and did not say anything about it.

HOW SAH'TE SET THE WORLD ON FIRE

When Sah'-te came home he found that his beads were gone. "Who stole my beads?" he asked.
Sah'te then took his yah'-tse [the stick the people used to wear crossways in a twist of their back hair] and stood it up in the fire,
and the flame climbed it and stood on the top.
He then took the hair stick with the flame at one end and said he would find out who stole his shell money.
First he pointed it to the north, but nothing happened;
then to the west, and nothing happened;
then east; then up; then down, and still nothing happened.
Then he pointed it south toward Tu'-le-yo'-me and the flame leaped from the stick and spread swiftly down the east side of Lower Lake,
burning the grass and brush and making a great smoke.

In the evening Wek'-wek came out of the roundhouse at Tu'-le-yo'-me and saw the country to the north on fire. He went in and told his grandfather that something was burning on Clear Lake.
Ol'-le the Coyote-man answered, "That's nothing; the people up there are burning tules."
Ol'-le knew what Wek'-wek had done, and knew that Sah'-te had sent the fire,
for Ol'-le was a magician and knew everything, but he did not tell Wek'-wek that he knew.

After a while Wek'-wek came out again and looked at the fire and saw that it was much nearer and was coming on swiftly.
He was afraid, and went back and told his grandfather that the fire was too near and too hot and would soon reach them.
After a little he went out again and came back and said, "Grandfather, the fire is coming fast; it is on this side of the lake and is awfully hot."

Ol'-le answered, "That's nothing; the people at Lower Lake are burning tules."

But now the roar and heat of the fire were terrible, even inside the roundhouse, and Wek'-wek thought they would soon burn.
He was so badly frightened that he told his grandfather what he had done.
He said, "Grandfather, I stole Sah'-te's shell money and put it in the creek, and now I'm afraid we shall burn."

Then Ol'-le took a sack and came out of the roundhouse and struck the sack against an oak tree, and fog came out.
He struck the tree several times and each time more fog came out and spread around.

Then he went back in the house and got another sack and beat the tree, and more fog came, and then rain.
He said to Wek'-wek, "It is going to rain for ten days and ten nights."
And it did rain, and the rain covered the whole country till all the land and all the hills and all the mountains were under water--
everything except the top of Oo-de'-pow-we (Mount Konokti, on the west side of Clear Lake) which was so high that its top stuck out a little.

There was no place for Wek'-wek to go and he flew about in the rain till he was all tired out.
Finally he found the top of Mount Konokti, (on the west side of Clear Lake) and sat down on it and stayed there.
On the tenth day the rain stopped, and after that the water began to go down and each day the mountain stood up higher.
Wek'-wek stayed on the mountain about a week, by which time the water had gone down and the land was bare again.

In Clear Lake near Oo-de'-pow-we is an island which was the home of two small grebes, diving birds, called Hoo-poos'-min.
They were brothers and had a roundhouse, and in the roundhouse a fire.
Wek'-wek went there and stayed two or three days, and then said he was going back to Tu'-le-yo'-me.

"All right," answered the Hoo-poos'-min brothers, "but don't tell Ol'-le that we have fire."

"All right," answered Wek'-wek, and he went off to Tu'-le-yo'-me to see Ol'-le, his grandfather.

When Wek'-wek arrived Ol'-le asked: "Who are you? I'm Ol'-le, and I live at Tu'-le-yo'-me."
Wek'-wek answered, "I'm Wek'-wek and I also live at Tu'-le-yo'-me."
"Oh yes," said Ol'-le, "you are Hoi'-poo (Captain) Wek'-wek."
"Yes," answered Wek'-wek.

At that time there were no real people in the world and Wek'-wek said, "There are no people; I'm lonesome; what are we going to do?"

Then Ol'-le told Wek'-wek to bring the feathers of the geese he had killed at Wen'-nok Lake.
Wek'-wek did so, and they set out and traveled over the country.
Wherever they found a good place for people Ol'-le took two feathers and laid them down side by side on the ground--
two together side by side in one place, two together side by side in another place,
and so on at each place where he wanted a RANCHERIA;
and at the same time he gave each place its name.

[Note that during the Spanish colonial period,
different peoples were gathered together at the missions (rancherias as well).
There they were decimated by European diseases,
and different languages and traditions reconciled,
when they were not simply suppressed as heretical.
One can expect Christian influences in the end as well.]
Next morning they again went out and found that all the feathers had turned into people:
that each pair of feathers had become two people, a man and a woman, so that at each place there were a man and a woman.
This is the way all the rancherias (villages) were started.
By and by all the people had children and after a while the people became very numerous.

GETTING FIRE

Wek'-wek was pleased and said, "This is good." A little later he asked, "Grandfather, now that we have people, what are we going to do? There is no fire; what can we do to get fire?"
Ol'-le replied, "I don't know; we shall see pretty soon."
Ol'-le had a small box in his roundhouse and in it kept two little Shrew-mice of the kind called We'-ke-wil'-lah.
They were brothers. Ol'-le said to them: "Kah'-kah-te the Crow has fire in his roundhouse, far away in the east; you go and steal it."
We'-ke-wil'-lah the little Shrew-mice said they would try,
and set out on their long journey and went far away to the east and finally came to Kah'-kah-te's roundhouse.
They heard Kah'-kah-te say, "kah'-ahk," and saw a spark of fire come out of the hole on top of the house.
Then they went to a dead tree and got some too-koom' (the kind of buckskin that comes on dead wood - (likely mushroom punk)
and cut off a piece and took it and climbed up on top of Kah'-kah-te's house and sat by the smoke hole and waited.
After a while Kah'-kah-te again said "kah'-ahk," and another spark came out, but they could not reach it.
But the next time Kah'-kah-te said "kah'-ahk" and another spark came out the little brothers caught it in their too-koom', the wood buckskin.
When they had done this they caught a little bug and pushed him in backward till he touched the spark.
Then they said, "Let's go," and set out at once and traveled as fast as they could toward Tu'-le-yo'-me.

Just then Kah'-kah-te the Crow came out of his house and in the darkness saw a little speck of light moving back and forth among the trees.
It was the fire bug going home with the little Shrew brothers.
Kah'-kah-te when he saw it cried, "Somebody has stolen my fire," and set out in pursuit.

The little brothers and the firefly were badly frightened and ran around a little hill so Kah'-kah-te could not see them, and they hid under the bank of a dry creek.
Kah'-kah-te hunted for them for some time but could not find them and went back to his house.
Kah-Kah-te's mate, who was inside, said, "Nobody stole our fire."
Kah'-kah-te answered, "Yes, someone stole it, I saw it go around." Then he went back into his house.

Then the We'-ke-wil'-lah brothers ran as fast as they could all the way back to Tu'-le-yo'-me and arrived there the same night.
They said to Ol'-le, "Grandfather, look," and tossed him the too-koom'--the tree buckskin with the fire inside.
He unrolled it and found the fire and took it out and made a fire on the ground.
Wek'-wek exclaimed, "That is good; I'm glad; now everybody can have fire."

Then Ol'-le put the fire in the oo'-noo (buckeye) tree, and told the people how to rub the oo'-noo stick to make it come out.
From that time to this everybody has known how to get fire from the oo'-noo tree.
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Thu May 05, 2016 1:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Postby E.P. Grondine » Thu May 05, 2016 10:12 am

It sems most likely to me that Ke'-lok was the Holocene Star Impact tale,
The first ancestors may not only have been animals,
but also constellations,
which would make sense if they were mariners using celestial navigation:

"THE first fire was made by the Doctor Birds at the birth of Wek'-wek.
The next fire was made by Ke'-lok the North Giant.
After Ke'-lok's death and after his fire had burnt up the world and had burnt itself out,
there was no fire except that of the Hul-luk mi-yum'-ko,
the Star-women, which was close by the elderberry tree, way off in the east where the Sun gets up."

Set out in op cit, page 75.
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
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