The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Postby E.P. Grondine » Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:25 am

Minimalist wrote:
why ancient peoples would make up stories about stuff falling from the skies and killing large numbers of people



I don't know. Why did the ancient Greeks make up stories about Zeus hurling thunderbolts?

Why did the Ancient Romans make up stories about their founders being put in boats as babies and cast adrift? Why did the Akkadians do the same? Why did the Jews? Your problem is that if you want to see everything as a cosmic impact you then have to explain all these other stories that the same peoples put out.

Two can play that game.


Zeus hurling thunderbolts is an easy one, min.
Whereby you yourself pretty much prove my points.
I would have examined it in detail in "Man and Impact in Europe".

As far as the babies in boats goes, it is usual for people to make up noble pasts for their leaders.

That they should use boats in many cases may perhaps indicate that these leaders came from marginal fishing peoples.
Or is there some Jungian explanation you would prefer to speculate on?

Since you are concerned with sources for the Bible and ancient Jewish history, here goes. My current working hypothesis is that
the Jewish peoples had their source in southern Ebla outliers, down by the copper sources. They allied with the Hyksos to provide
a communication route to the east of Egypt proper between them and the Nubian peoples to the south of Egypt.
But all of that is a long way from where my current research focus is.

Now it appears that your apparat for working with any oral corpus is only based on Biblical, Ancient Near Eastern, and late European examples.
Mine is not.

In general, please remember that if you are examining the development of myths,
it helps is you understand the actual events that occurred when those myths first started.
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Postby E.P. Grondine » Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:24 pm

Image

A reminder as to how limited the sample size was.
Taking and preparing samples is quite expensive;
We'll see if the Hunaboo account above is confirmed by sample densities, and if it leads to impact structures.
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Postby E.P. Grondine » Fri Jun 23, 2017 6:36 pm

Image

I do not know Hancock's source for this image, but note again the TWO temperature effects.
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Postby Tiompan » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:41 am

The source of the graphic is global warming sceptic Prof. Don J. Easterbrook, from an article in
the alt “news” outlet Global research .
http://www.globalresearch.ca/global-coo ... here/10783

Obviously it shows the impact of the YD centering on Greenland and derived from ice cores from various sites including the highest points in the mountains in the centre of that country .
The impact there was quite different from that of Asia Minor / Anatolia . E.g. , Gobekli Tepe is nearly 6,000 Km from Greenland , it is over 2000m lower in altitude from the Summit site that produced the data in and is approx 40 degrees nearer the equator . At the most basic level “Plotting Younger Dryas temperature and climate anomalies against latitude shows that climate anomalies increased in magnitude toward the poles “ from “The Younger Dryas Climate Event” A.E.Carlson in the Encyclopedia of Quaternary Science .
As has been mentioned here previously ,
(see
"Change and Stability in an uncertain environment:Foraging strategies in the Levant from the early Natufian to PPNB " :Arlene Rosen .
Small game , the Younger Dryas ,and the transition to agriculture in the southern levant :Natalie Munro .
The role of the younger dryas in the origin of agriculture in west Asia :Offer Bar-Yosef . ) the impact of the YD in Anatolia was nothing like that of Greenland , there is even ample evidence from burial remains from the period and they show no signs of nutritional deficiencies infectious diseases or even trauma .
Fringe attempts to connect GT to the YD are pathetic and those that do make life more difficult for themselves by providing errors elsewhere in their efforts that make the job of refuting that much simpler . The recent Sweatman /Edinburgh Uni effort is a fine example .
Look at the dates for the end of the YD on the graphic and compare with the date of build of GT .
The end of the YD was approx 11,500 BP /9500 BC
The oldest reliable date from GT is 9314 BC . GT was built after the end YD event in an area where it had much less impact than further north and west .
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:17 am

Tiompan wrote:The source of the graphic is global warming sceptic Prof. Don J. Easterbrook, from an article in
the alt “news” outlet Global research .
http://www.globalresearch.ca/global-coo ... here/10783

Obviously it shows the impact of the YD centering on Greenland and derived from ice cores from various sites including the highest points in the mountains in the centre of that country.


Well, tiompan, thank you very much for that. Since it is an "alt" site likely by global warming sceptics,
now I'll have to check to see if the underlying data is any good.

If that data is from Greenland, then it should reflect the melt water pulses from the North American ice sheet.

Tiompan wrote:The impact there was quite different from that of Asia Minor /Anatolia . E.g. , Gobekli Tepe is nearly 6,000 Km from Greenland , it is over 2000m lower in altitude from the Summit site that produced the data in and is approx 40 degrees nearer the equator. At the most basic level “Plotting Younger Dryas temperature and climate anomalies against latitude shows that climate anomalies increased in magnitude toward the poles “ from “The Younger Dryas Climate Event” A.E.Carlson in the Encyclopedia of Quaternary Science .


If by "impact" you mean the "effects on climate" by two discrete cometary impact events, then we agree entirely.
That said, the 10,850 BCE impact event caused a global dust loading of the atmosphere,
which led to a climate collapse which killed off the mega fauna globally,
including any which lived in the GT region.
Did any mega fauna live there?
Were there any mega fauna hunters?

While I can no longer provide direct citations off the top of my head,
I will state that Native American peoples remembered not being able to store collected foodstuffs
because mega fauna would smell the stores and attack to get at those stores.

Tiompan wrote:As has been mentioned here previously ,
(see
"Change and Stability in an uncertain environment:Foraging strategies in the Levant from the early Natufian to PPNB " :Arlene Rosen .
Small game , the Younger Dryas ,and the transition to agriculture in the southern levant :Natalie Munro .
The role of the younger dryas in the origin of agriculture in west Asia :Offer Bar-Yosef . ) the impact of the YD in Anatolia was nothing like that of Greenland , there is even ample evidence from burial remains from the period and they show no signs of nutritional deficiencies infectious diseases or even trauma .
Fringe attempts to connect GT to the YD are pathetic and those that do make life more difficult for themselves by providing errors elsewhere in their efforts that make the job of refuting that much simpler . The recent Sweatman /Edinburgh Uni effort is a fine example .
Look at the dates for the end of the YD on the graphic and compare with the date of build of GT .
The end of the YD was approx 11,500 BP /9500 BC


tiompan, I do not use the term Younger Dryas, as earlier it was so poorly defined by the paleo climatologists as to be useless.
Some placed it here in time, others there in time, and this behavior continues.

Fletcher and myself work in an area and time of change from hunter gatherers to settled agriculture.
This data provides a very convenient check on near eastern data and hypothesis.

Tiompan wrote: The oldest reliable date from GT is 9314 BC. GT was built after the end YD event in an area where it had much less impact than further north and west.


tiompan, you keep confusing "impact" with "effect".
In my frame of reference, this is like confusing "believe" with "think".

Regarding carbon 14 dating,
note that fast neutrons are produced in large hyper velocity impacts.
I do not know if any comet fragments hit near GT.
I need geologic cores from GT with Platinum Group analysis before I can trust the teams' carbon 14 calibrations.
I also want phytolith sequences firmly established from those cores.
Bones are not phytoliths.

That said, clearly we have not reached the lowest levels of the GT site yet.
In addition to that, I suspect that the first preceding structures may have been made of wood from large trees,
with those wood elements replaced by stone elements
following deforestation in the area.

Lastly, in your analysis,
you have not taken into account the effects of rising sea levels
on people living in nearby marine environments.
Based on data from the Americas,
this range limitation in your analysis is not well founded.

Nor have you faced up to the effect of the global climate collapse at 10,850 BCE.

Finally, it is clear that at GT we are dealing with "magical" thinking of some type.
Right now Flecther and my ow estimate is based on the two plaques,
and the structures themselves.

As a general principle, I always take the lack of data into account when building hypothesis.
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Postby Tiompan » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:21 am

Tiompan wrote:The impact there was quite different from that of Asia Minor / Anatolia . E.g. , Gobekli Tepe is nearly 6,000 Km from Greenland , it is over 2000m lower in altitude from the Summit site that produced the data in and is approx 40 degrees nearer the equator . At the most basic level “Plotting Younger Dryas temperature and climate anomalies against latitude shows that climate anomalies increased in magnitude toward the poles “ from “The Younger Dryas Climate Event” A.E.Carlson in the Encyclopedia of Quaternary Science .


E.P. Grondine wrote:If by "impact" you mean the "effects on climate" by two discrete cometary impact events, then we agree entirely.

EP ,
No , I didn't refer to cometary impact events . I was clearly referring only to the "Younger Dryas temperature and climate anomalies " .
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:22 am

Well, tiompan, when you work out the causes of those "anomalies", get back to me.
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Postby Tiompan » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:50 am

The only one who is confused is yourself EP .
The use of the term impact in relation to changes in climate during the YD makes perfect sense .
I'll wait and see what the archaeologists discover at the site . I don't see why I should give any heed to your beliefs about what may be found at GT .
These beliefs are no different to your interpretations of the plaques .
Neither are based on any knowledge of the subject matters and like all ill informed interpretations tell us more about you than the subject


There was no"global climate collapse at 10,850 BCE.". Again for the umpteenth time , the impact of the YD was not uniform across the globe .


What analysis ?
If you have a problem with anything that was said provide a quote then refute it .
GT is 250km from the nearest sea , any one living there would not be "nearby" .
Last edited by Tiompan on Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels, part 2

Postby Tiompan » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:55 am

I'll leave the "working out " of the causes of the anomalies to those that are likely to know about the subject .
It's a waste of time and space to tell those with an agenda , as the reality just doesn't intrude .
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