The timing of the rise in sea levels, Part 1

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The timing of the rise in sea levels, Part 1

Postby E.P. Grondine » Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:23 pm

Hi tiompan, all -

With the new find off Sicily, there will be growing public awareness of the rise in sea levels.
So this is a good time to bring them up.

There has been so much horse manure written about the "YD impact" by various idiots that I thought I would make my own additional contribution to the pile.

As far as my qualification to do this go, many manned Mars flight enthusiasts will tell you I am an idiot; and they are joined in this opinion by 2012 fatalists, different "psychics", theosophist archaeologists, followers of Velioksy and Cayce, and Ed Weiler, Dr. Morrison and his "friends", and believers in "Nemesis", and various employees and associates of the Ohio Historical Society, self proclaimed "Wicca" and their friends, who will also throw in that I am a liar and a fraud.

I should also mention in regard to the topic at hand that I edited a presentation by D. Usikov on Gamma Ray bursts, back many years ago when I had a brain. He bears no responsibility for the following.

My own little road apple is this: in large hyperevlocity impacts, some photons reach gamma ray energy levels, which results in the release of neutrons and thus in the formation of 14C and 10Be.

Carbon 14 is produced by nitrogen beingt hit by neutrons:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon-14

IN LARGE HYPER VELOCITY IMPACTS, THESE NEUTRONS ARE FREED UP BY GAMMA RAYS,
PHOTONS THAT HAVE REACHED GAMMA RAY ENERGIES IN THE IMPACT''S PLASMA.

I am not current with the latest charts of 14C production from 50,000 BC on, but the intcal98 chart, which is detailed and accurate enough for the presentation at hand may be seen on page 13 of Firestone's article here:

http://www.centerfirstamericans.com/mam ... 6_num2.pdf

(and here is Dr. Firestone's graph used by yet another bunch of nuts, who conveniently posted it to the web)

Image


(As a consequence of the phenomenon noted here,
14C levels in ancient samples vary by their distance from impacts.
So one will get different calibration curves,
depending on the location of the ancient samples used to construct it.)

There are several different features in this which attract notice.

First off, one notices several CURVES which Dr. Firestone fitted to the 14C production data. These may perhaps represent either gamma ray bursts from planets falling into their suns, gamma ray bursts from stars falling into to their galactic centers, gamma ray burst from supernova explosions interacting with outlying stars, etc. etc. etc. Fascinating material for cosmological conjecture...

Then perhaps one notices the separate and distinct SPIKES. The spike between 50,000 BP and 40,000 BP seems to align with the Meteor Crater impact.

Image

The second peak between 40,000 BP and 30,00 BP is likely associated with a large iron asteroid impact in Alaksa.

Image

Image

Early report here, including effects on Berringia:
http://alaskareport.com/news28/ned71119 ... _tusks.htm

And a more recent map:
Image

{BTW, iron meteorites have a market value. Don't ask.]

Moving on, nothing between 30,000 BP and 20,000 BP, and then TWO spikes between 20,000 BP and 10,000 BP.
The second of these has been connected with the "YD Boundary" impact at 10,850 (or so) BCE,
while the earlier spike has gone un-examined.

Taking a look at this chart, we can see that the last ice age lacked a maxima of cold
(for the purposes of this discussion, ignore the little box in the upper right):
Image

Or here:

Image

Note that dust usually increases as water is held as ice. Except in the last glacial cycle.

Let us call this missing minimal temperature the "Grondine Minima". The discontinuity with earlier glacial cycles begins at about the same time as the first spike in neutrons between 20,000-10,000 BP.

One may notice that the first sea level rise occurs well before 10,800 or so BCE:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 17_F2.html

Image

and here:
Image

(Tarasov and Peltier's work is usually ignored various self proclaimed "YD Impact experts".
And that is one of the reasons why I call these two major impact events the "Holocene Start Impact Events".)

Where did that first bit of water come from?:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 17_F3.html

Image

a) Computed regional drainage chronologies for the Gulf of Mexico
b), the Atlantic
c) and the Arctic.
d) The inferred regional temperature change chronology from Central Greenland, from a calibrated glaciological model

This is the end of the first part of this note.
Part two will cover the large impact "crater" associated with the first 14C spike.
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels

Postby E.P. Grondine » Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:32 pm

WHAT OCCURS IN A LARGE HYPERVELOCITY IMPACT ON AN ICE SHEET?

In the first post, I speculated on the timing of the beginning of the first of the Holocene Start Impact Events. In this post, I move on to consider some possible physical evidence, and call attention to an earlier comment by David Ollen on the mechanics of large hypervelocity impacts onto ice sheets.

Image

http://www.meridianbooster.com/2009/03/ ... -down-here

Sunday, March 22, 2009
Lloydminster Meridian Booster

DID A MASSIVE METEOR TOUCH DOWN HERE?
Posted By Graham Mason
Posted 4 days ago

It's just a theory, but it's an interesting one.

David Ollen may have found evidence of a massive impact crater just south of Kitscoty, but it doesn't look anything like what you might expect.

Instead of a huge hole in the ground, it's a circular plateau about 30 kilometres in diameter, with an inner circle about 12 kilometres in diameter.

If it is evidence of an impact, it may have happened during the last ice age, when the area around Lloydminster was under a huge mass of ice.

Ollen's theory, and he stresses that's "all it is" is a large asteroid hit and melted the thick ice above the area, likely not even reaching the ground.

[epg - I don't think so. Not for this size of blast.]

With this evaporation, a great weight was lifted from the land and, combined with the heavy ice still around the impact's circumference, caused the land under the hole in the ice to rise 50 to 100 feet.

"When you have three-quarters of a mile of ice over an area there's a lot of pressure there," he said. "That ice is heavy. When you all of a sudden bang it and evaporate half of it, it takes the pressure off but the pressure is still on around it.

"If all of a sudden you knock the ice out of the spot, it's going to pop up."

Ollen noticed the anomaly while looking at topography maps to determine Internet availability for households in the area.

"We are an Internet service provider and we subscribe to a website that has a topography map on it and we use those maps to tell people whether they can get access rather than driving all the way to a place and telling them we can't reach it, said Ollen. "I thought about it for a little while and figured a few things out over the weekend, I thought I may as well send it to Discover Magazine and the Booster as well.

"It's a big impact, 30 kilometres across. That's a heck of a big asteroid." [or comet - epg]

Ollen said he'd be interested in knowing what a professional would have to say about it.

"I've been a science nut since I was a kid. They used to call me "Anti-matter Dave" when I was in school," said Ollen. "I've always been interested in science and archaeology and geology and anything to do with science."

"It's just a curiosity, it might be wrong, it's just an interesting theory."
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels

Postby E.P. Grondine » Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:38 pm

WHAT OCCURS IN A LARGE HYPERVELOCITY IMPACT ON AN ICE SHEET? PART 2

I have pointed out that a major rise in sea levels and a major change in climate occurred well before the dates for what is widely and mistakenly called the Younger Dryas Boundary impact event.

I have pointed out a geobleme in Canada that may or may not be associated with the first of the Holocene Start Impact Events.

In this post, I now return to consideration of the question of "What occurs in a large hypervelocity impact on an ice sheet?".

While the answer to this obviously depends on where it hits, it is clear that large amounts of water would be released, by necessity. Thus one might suppose that if one had data on water flows down river drainages during this period, one could determine roughly where any hypervelocity impactor hit.

Now it just so happens that for 3 river drainages, we have that data.

The Drainages:
Image

and outflows:
Image

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v4 ... 17_F3.html

One of the reasons we have that data for these outlets is that they
feed into the "Atlantic Conveyor", which is of some concern right now:

Image

Unfortunately, the flows of the Columbia River and Yukon River, which drain into the Pacific Ocean, are not as well documented. (Based on the amount of research done, one might think that in some peoples' opinions the Pacific Ocean plays no role in global climate.)

Columbia River Outflow Overview:
http://geology.gsapubs.org/content/37/1/95.full

or more precisely this graph of the salinity of the water at the outflow of the Columbia River (by Lopes and Mix):
http://ceoas.oregonstate.edu/people/fil ... aflood.pdf

Note especially that Glacial Lake Bonneville was very SALTY,
and this produces problems in using the salinity proxy for drainage and flow estimates.

But in performing this back calculation from river flows to impact point(s) one may also expect that water released by a large hypervelocity impact on any ice sheet may also have released enough water to breach any glacial ice dams, and this water would contributed to the river flows:

For Glacial Lake Missoula:
http://geology.gsapubs.org/content/12/8 ... l.pdf+html
and
http://pubs.usgs.gov/bul/1661/report.pdf

and for Glacial Lake Bonneville:
http://geology.utah.gov/popular/general ... oggle-id-4

Now if one looks at the temperature data, one can see the first of the Holocene Start
Impacts and the outflows occurred substantially before what is defined as the Younger Dryas:
Image

And what occurs in Ohio (where I am writing from) was that warming occurred first, and then cold again:

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions/Pl ... y%20OH.pdf

(see also "Intensity and Rate of Vegetation and Climatic Change, Linda C.K. Shane, The First Discovery of America, The Ohio Archaeological Council, Columbus, Ohio." if you can find a copy, but note that Shane's 14C dates in it have to be recalibrated.)
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels

Postby E.P. Grondine » Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:16 pm

TWO FRAGMENTS OF A CHOCTAW IMPACT TRADITION

The traditions of the Choctaws concerning the Oka Falama
[the Returned Waters] is as follows:

FRAGMENT 1

In ancient time, after many generations of mankind had
lived and passed from the stage of being, the race became
so corrupt and wicked, brother fighting against brother and
wars deluging the Earth with human blood and carnage,

The Great Spirit became greatly displeased, and finally determined
to destroy the human race; therefore He sent a great prophet [the Peoples' Mourner] to them
who proclaimed from tribe to tribe, and from village to village,
the fearful tidings that the human race was soon to be destroyed.

None believed his words, and lived on in their wickedness;
as if they did not care, and the seasons came again and went.

Then came the autumn of the year,
followed by many succeeding cloudy days and nights,
during which the Sun by day and the Moon and Stars by night
were concealed from the Earth;

Then succeeded a total darkness,
and the Sun seemed to have been blotted out,
while darkness and silence with a cold atmosphere
took possession of earth.
Mankind wearied and perplexed, but not repenting or reforming,
slept in darkness but to awake in darkness.

Then the mutterings of distant thunder began to be heard,
gradually becoming incessant,
until it reverberated in all parts of the sky,
and seemed to echo back even from the deep center of the Earth.
Then fear and consternation seized upon every heart
and all believed the Sun would never return.

The Magi [Spiritual Guides]of the Choctaws spoke despondently
in reply to the many interrogations of the alarmed people,
and sang their death-songs
which were but faintly heard in the mingled confusion that arose
amid the gloom of the night that seemed would have no returning morn.

Mankind went from place to place only by torch-light;
their food stored away became mouldy and unfit for use;
The wild animals of the forests gathered around their fires bewildered,
and even entered their towns and villages seeming to have lost all fear of man.

Suddenly a fearful crash of thunder,
louder than ever before heard,
seemed to shake the Earth,
and immediately after a light was seen glimmering
seemingly far away to the North.

It was soon discovered not to be the light of the returning Sun,
but the gleam of great waters advancing in mighty billows,
wave succeeding wave as they rolled onward over the earth
destroying everything in their path.

Then the wailing cry was heard coining from all directions,
"Oka Falamah, Oka Falamah" ("The returned waters, The returned waters.").

Stretching from horizon to horizon, it came pouring its massive waters onward.
The foundations of the Great Deep were broken up.
Soon the earth was entirely overwhelmed
by the mighty and irresistible rush of the waters
which swept away the human race and all animals
leaving the earth a desolate waste.

Of all mankind only one was saved,
and that one was the mysterious prophet (The People's Mourner, below)
who had been sent by the Great Spirit
to warn the human race of their near approaching doom.

This prophet saved himself by making a raft of sassafras logs
by the direction of the Great Spirit,
upon which he floated upon the great waters that covered the earth,
as various kinds of fish swam around him,
and twined among the branches of the submerged trees,
while upon the face of the waters
he looked upon the dead bodies of men and beasts,
as they arose and fell upon the heaving billows.
....
Soon night came on,
and the Moon and stars again made their appearance,
and the next morning the Sun arose in its former splendor.

And the prophet looking around saw an island in the distance
toward which the raft was slowly drifting,
and before the Sun had gone down seemingly again into the world of waters,
the raft had touched the island,
upon which he landed and encamped,
and being wearied and lonely
he soon forgot his anxieties in sleep;
and when morning came, in looking around over the island,
he found it covered with all varieties of animals excepting
the mammoth which had been destroyed.
...

FRAGMENT 2

In the far distant ages of the past,
the people, whom the Great Spirit had created,
became so wicked that he resolved to sweep them all from the earth,
except Okla tabashih (the Peoples' Mourner) and his family,
who alone did that which was good.
...
The rain began to fall increasing in volume for many days and nights,
until thousands of people and animals perished.
[likely a Christian insertion by missionary]

Then it [the rain] suddenly ceased
and utter darkness covered the face of the earth for a long time,
while the people and animals that still survived
groped here and there in the fearful gloom.

Suddenly far in the distant north was seen a long streak of light.
They believed that amid the raging elements
and the impenetrable darkness that covered the earth,
the Sun had lost its way and was rising in the north.
All the surviving people rushed towards the seemingly rising Sun,
though utterly bewildered, not knowing or caring what they did.
But well did Oklatabashih (the Peoples' Mourner)
interpret the prophetic sign of their fast approaching doom.

Instead of the bright dawn of another long wished-for day,
they saw, in utter despair, that it was but the mocking light
that foretold how near the Okafalama (the Returning Waters) was at hand,

Rolling like mountains on mountains piled
and engulfing everything in its resistless course.
...

These Fragments Preserved by
H. B. CUSHMAN, in

HISTORY OF THE CHOCTAW, CHICKASAW and NATCHEZ INDIANS
HEADLIGHT PRINTING HOUSE, GREENVILLE, TEXAS, 1899

and his Grandfather, a Christian Missionary,
both of whom thought it "proved" the "Flood of Noah"
who had been sent by the Great Spirit
to warn the human race of their near approaching doom.
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels

Postby E.P. Grondine » Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:16 am

A FIVE NATIONS TRADITION
preserved by David Cusick in his Sketches of the Ancient History of the Six Nations:

"It came to pass that the Good Creator, as he traveled from place to place, after a while went along the shore of the lake (Lake Agassiz).
There, not far away, he saw the Bad Creator making for himself a bridge of ice across the lake, a bridge which already extended far out on the water.

Thereupon the Good Creator went to the place where the Bad Mind was working, and when he arrived there, he said: "Tawi'skaron, what is this that you are doing for yourself?"
The Bad Creator replied, saying: "I am making a pathway for myself."
And then, pointing in the direction toward which he was building the bridge, he added: "In that direction there is a land where dwell great animals of fierce dispositions.
As soon as I complete my pathway to that other land, thereafter they will habitually come over.
Along this pathway they will be in the habit of coming across the lake to eat the flesh of human beings who are about to dwell on the earth."

[Most likely Polar Bears]

So then the Good Creator said to the Bad Creator: "You should stop the work which you are doing. Surely the intention of your mind is not good."
The Bad Creator replied, saying: "I will not cease from what I am doing, for, of course, it is good that these great animals shall be in the habit of coming here to eat the flesh of human beings who will dwell here."

So of course the Bad Creator did not obey and cease from building the bridge for himself, and thereupon the Good Creator turned back and reached dry land.

Now along the shore of the sea grew shrubs, and he saw a bird sitting on a limb of one. The bird belonged to the class of birds which we call the bluebirds.
And the Good Creator then said to this Bluebird: "You shall kill a cricket. You shall remove one hind leg from it, and you shall hold it in your mouth, and you shall go there to the very place where the Bad Creator is working.
You shall land very near to the place where he is working, and you shall cry out."
"And the Bluebird replied, saying, "Yo".

Thereupon the Bluebird truly did seek for a cricket, and after a while it found one, and it killed it, too. Then it pulled out one of the cricket's hind legs and put it into its mouth to hold, and then it flew, winging its way to the place where the Bad Creator was at work making his ice bridge.

There it landed, near to him at his task. And of course it then shouted, "Kwe', kwe', kwe', kwe', kwe'." At which the Bad Mind raised up his head and looked, and he saw the bluebird sitting there. He believed from what he saw that the bluebird held in its mouth the thigh of a man, and also that its mouth was wholly covered with blood.

It was then that the Bad Creator sprang up at once and fled. As fast as he ran the bridge of ice which he was making dissipated."

[It may be that "Bluebird" was a bad translation for "kahastenes", but this Bluebird with its mouth covered with blood, whose appearance caused the ice to melt appears to have been the comet whose impact is now well evidenced at 10,900 BCE]
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels

Postby E.P. Grondine » Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:17 am

A Five Nations tradition of the Holocene Start Impact from David Cusick's Sketches of the Ancient History of the Six Nations:

"It came to pass that the Good Creator, as he traveled from place to place, after a while went along the shore of the lake (Lake Agassiz).
There, not far away, he saw the Bad Creator making for himself a bridge of ice across the lake, a bridge which already extended far out on the water.

Thereupon the Good Creator went to the place where the Bad Mind was working, and when he arrived there, he said: "Tawi'skaron, what is this that you are doing for yourself?"
The Bad Creator replied, saying: "I am making a pathway for myself."
And then, pointing in the direction toward which he was building the bridge, he added: "In that direction there is a land where dwell great animals of fierce dispositions.
As soon as I complete my pathway to that other land, thereafter they will habitually come over.
Along this pathway they will be in the habit of coming across the lake to eat the flesh of human beings who are about to dwell on the earth."

[Most likely Polar Bears]

So then the Good Creator said to the Bad Creator: "You should stop the work which you are doing. Surely the intention of your mind is not good."
The Bad Creator replied, saying: "I will not cease from what I am doing, for, of course, it is good that these great animals shall be in the habit of coming here to eat the flesh of human beings who will dwell here."

So of course the Bad Creator did not obey and cease from building the bridge for himself, and thereupon the Good Creator turned back and reached dry land.

Now along the shore of the sea grew shrubs, and he saw a bird sitting on a limb of one. The bird belonged to the class of birds which we call the bluebirds.
And the Good Creator then said to this Bluebird: "You shall kill a cricket. You shall remove one hind leg from it, and you shall hold it in your mouth, and you shall go there to the very place where the Bad Creator is working.
You shall land very near to the place where he is working, and you shall cry out."
"And the Bluebird replied, saying, "Yo".

Thereupon the Bluebird truly did seek for a cricket, and after a while it found one, and it killed it, too. Then it pulled out one of the cricket's hind legs and put it into its mouth to hold, and then it flew, winging its way to the place where the Bad Creator was at work making his ice bridge.

There it landed, near to him at his task. And of course it then shouted, "Kwe', kwe', kwe', kwe', kwe'." At which the Bad Mind raised up his head and looked, and he saw the bluebird sitting there. He believed from what he saw that the bluebird held in its mouth the thigh of a man, and also that its mouth was wholly covered with blood.

It was then that the Bad Creator sprang up at once and fled. As fast as he ran the bridge of ice which he was making dissipated."

[It may be that "Bluebird" was a bad translation for "kahastenes", but this Bluebird with its mouth covered with blood, whose appearance caused the ice to melt appears to have been the comet whose impact is now well evidenced at 10,900 BCE]
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels

Postby kbs2244 » Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:02 am

E.P.:
Do you have a all this information in a one place, easy to download, place?
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels

Postby Tiompan » Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:24 am

kbs2244 wrote:E.P.:
Do you have a all this information in a one place, easy to download, place?



Earlier form of external symbolic storage found in a slightly later form at

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/libraryscience/24/
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels

Postby E.P. Grondine » Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:17 am

Hi Kb -

The ethnographic material has been posted here earlier in pieces over the years since 2006.
I also discussed parts of this this with some friends.

Also and more importantly posted to the meteorite list over the years since 2006.
When Firestone Kennett et al.'s book first came out I had a bear of a time
sorting the iron impacts our from the Holocene Start Impact Event.

I also used to participate on the Cosmic Tusk, until attacks there made it impossible.

It would be nice to put together an eBook. I may be able to get to that this winter.


Hi George -

Its nice to see more attention being paid to the traditional histories.
It used to be that they were treated as trash.

When I did my book "Man and Impact in the Americas", I used microfilm at the University of Virginia for Cusick.

Every thing else was very hard to find as well.

I disagree with Oestriecher about what Rafinesque did, and particularly disagree with his version of Shawnee history.
For that matter, In general, I have found the Lenape understanding of Shawnee history to be very, very, very bad.
But the Lenape do use their casino money to promote their understanding of it, even though it conflicts with the hard data.
For the western Lenape division, see the Marksville Culture in Ohio.

Besides Cusick, you may enjoy reading Alsop's eyewitness account of the Andaste:
http://mith.umd.edu/eada/html/display.p ... racter.xml

Which used to be another very obscure work.

Yes, the Andaste were tall, about 7-8 feet,
(see Marshall Beckers excavation report, and Dragoo's and Neuman's excavations.)
but they were real assholes and not some divine race.
Not Nephilim, not Allegewi, not Tallegewi, not survivors of Atlantis,
not alien human hybrids.

I've read that their name translates to "Black Pole",
but I do not know this for sure yet.

There is likely to be more on them in the colonial records.
But finding that information will take substantial money.
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels

Postby E.P. Grondine » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:24 pm

Graham Hancock and Randall Carson's new book is not that bad.
His PR campaign for it will raise public awareness of exactly how bad the impact hazard really is.

But they only know about Firestone et al's later work, and are not aware of my own earlier "Man and Impact in the Americas".
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels

Postby E.P. Grondine » Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:09 am

WYANDOT (HURON) CREATION MYTH

[THIS APPEARS TO REMEMBER THE TWO SEPARATE IMPACTS - EPG]

Recorded by W. E. Connelley, "Wyandot Folk-Lore," Twentieth Century Classics and School Readings, Topeka, Kansas, 1899, pp. 67 ff. Collected from various Wyandot informants at Kansas City, Kansas, and Wyandotte reservation, Oklahoma, in the course of the last half century.

Passed on by C. M. Barbeau, "Huron and Wyandot Mythology With an Appendix Containing Earlier Published Records", GEOLOGICAL SURVEY MEMOIR 80 I, No. 11, Anthropological Series, OTTAWA ,Government Printing Bureau, 1915, No. 1554 (page 303)


THE WOMAN WHO FELL FROM HEAVEN

The people lived in heaven. They were Wyandots. The Head Man's name was the Big Chief, or the Mighty Ruler. He had a very beautiful daughter.
She became sick. The medicine man came. She could not be cured by his "medicine."

He said, "Dig up the wild apple tree; what will cure her she can pluck from among its roots." This apple tree stood near the door of the Lodge of the Mighty Ruler.

The medicine man advised that while they were digging up the wild apple tree they should bring the young woman and lay her down upon the ground
under its branches, so that she might see down where the men were at work,* and the more quickly pluck away the "medicine" when it should be reached.

When they had dug there for awhile, the tree and the ground all about it suddenly sank down, fell through, and disappeared. The lap, or tree-top,
caught and carried down the young woman. Tree and woman disappeared, and the rent or broken world, and the rent earth was closed over both of them.

This point where the tree sank down through heaven is called in the Wyandot mythology, "the point of breaking through". In some versions of this account it is called the "Jumping-ofif Place"; for the woman is represented as jumping or springing from the sky. The same Wyandot term is used, «kough, in all versions.

Underneath, in the lower world, was only water the Great Water.

Two Swans were swimming about there. These Swans saw the young woman falling from heaven. Some accounts say that a mighty peal of thunder, the
first ever heard in these lower regions, broke over the waters, and startled all the Swimmers. On looking up, the Swans' beheld the woman standing in
the rent heavens, clad in flames of bright lightning. She was taller than the highest tree. Thus was she accompanied in her fall from heaven by Heh'-noh,
the Thunder God of the Wyandots.

One of the Swans said: "What shall we do with this Woman ?"

The other Swan replied: "We must receive her on our backs."

Then they threw their bodies together, side by side, and she fell upon them.

(Some versions say women were doing the digging; others use the word "people. W. E. Connelley.)

(The Wyandot word for swan is used in this place, but the description of the birds would teem to indicate gulls, or geese. They are described as "flat-backed birds," half-a-tree tall; i.e., very large W. E. Connelley.)

The Swan that had first spoken said: "What shall we do with this woman? We cannot forever bear her up.

To this question the other Swan replied: "We must call a Council of all the Swimmers and all the Water Tribes."

This they did. Each Animal came upon special invitation. The Big Turtle came by special invitation to preside over the Great Council.
Much discussion was had by the Great Council. But it seemed for a long time that the deliberations would be fruitless. No plan for the disposition of
the Woman could be agreed upon. When the Great Council was about to adjourn without coming to a conclusion, the Big Turtle said:
"If you can get a little of the Earth, which, with the Woman and the tree, fell down from heaven, I will hold it."

So the Animals took it by turns to try to get the Earth. They dived down into the deep where the tree had fallen. But they could get none of the
Earth, which, so the Wyandots claim, shone with a brilliant light to guide them. In this search many of the Animals were drowned, and came to the
surface dead.

When it seemed that none of the Earth could be obtained, the Toad volunteered to go down and try and see what success she might have. The Toad was gone a long time. The Great Council despaired of her coming back again. Finally she came up, with her mouth full of the Earth;
but she was dead when she reached the surface.

There was very little of the Earth, too little, it was supposed, and the Great Council was discouraged. But the Little Turtle urged that it be used.
She rubbed it carefully about the edges of the Big Turtle's shell, and from this small amount soon there was the Great Island upon the Big Turtle's back.

The Woman was removed from the backs of the Swans to the Great Island, which was, from that time, her home.

The Toad was the only Swimmer that could get the Earth. This is why the Toad has always been called Mah'-shooh-tah'-ah ”Our Grandmother”
by the Wyandots. The Toad is held in reverence by the Wyandots, and none of them will harm her, to this day.

THE GREAT ISLAND

The Island grew to be a Great Land, all of North America, which to the Wyandots was all the land of the earth. The Wyandot name for the Great
Island means, literally, "The land which stands up from the Great Water"; but it is correctly rendered "The Great Island." It rests yet on the back of
the Big Turtle. He stands deep down in the Great Water, in which the Swans were swimming when they saw the Woman fall from heaven. Sometimes
he becomes weary of remaining so long in one position. Then he shifts his weight and moves (changes) his feet. And then the Great Island trembles,
and the Wyandots cry out, "He moves the earth! He moves the earth!" Thus does the Wyandot account for the earthquake.

THE LITTLE TURTLE IN THE SKY, OR
THE CREATION OF THE SUN, MOON, AND STARS.

When the Great Island was made on the Big Turtle's back there was no sun, and no moon, and no stars. The Woman could not see well by the "Snow
Light." A Great Council was called to see what should be done for a light for the Woman.

After a long time spent in deliberation to no purpose, the Council was about to disperse and let the world continue in darkness. And now the Little
Turtle said: "Let me go up to the sky; I will put a light there for the Woman."

It was agreed that the Little Turtle might go into the sky. A great Cloud was called by the Council. The Cloud was full of Thunder and Lightning.
It rolled over the Great Water. When it came where the Council was in session, it was seen to be full of bushes, trees, streams, lakes, and ponds. The
Little Turtle got into these streams and was soon carried into the sky, which the Wyandots believed to be solid, and much like the earth at the present time.

Here the Little Turtle took some of the Lightning and kindled a great flame, which stood still in the sky. But it did not light all the Great Island, while
in that part of it where the Woman lived the heat was intolerable. The Sun as made by the Little Turtle was not satisfactory. Another
Council was called. The Little Turtle came in the Cloud. At this Council it was determined to give the Sun life and a spirit, so that it could "run about
the sky." The Mud Turtle was directed to dig a hole clear through the earth (the Great Island) so that the Sun could go through the sky by day, and
then, through the hole in the earth, back to the east by night. This the Mud Turtle successfully did. But it seems that the Sun often loitered in this
subterranean passage-way, and remained there for long periods. The world was left in total darkness at these times.

It was resolved to call a third Great Council to deliberate upon the matter, and to chide the Sun. To this third Council came the Sun, the Little Turtle, and the other Animals. The Council decreed that the Little Turtle should make the Sun a wife, and that she should shine while he was going back to the east through the subterranean passage-way made by the Mud Turtle. The Little Turtle made the Moon for a wife for the Sun. Many children were born to them, and
these are the Stars that "run about the sky," as the Wyandots call the stars that move like the sun and moon.

After a time the Sun was displeased with his wife, the Moon. He drew her into the subterranean passage-way, and would have destroyed her there if the Little Turtle had not come and rescued her. [The Sun] robbed her of all her heat and much of her light, and so maimed her that she could not keep pace with him in the sky.

The New Moon represents all that was left of the Sun's wife when the Little Turtle rescued her from her husband's wrath. The Little Turtle cured her to that degree that she regained gradually her original form; when, however, she had attained this, she immediately sickened from grief because of her husband's inattention and neglect, and pined away, diminishing daily until she altogether disappeared. When next seen she was again of the same size and form as when rescued by the Little Turtle; then she increased gradually, animated with the hope that when she had reached her former fullness she could recover her husband's favour. Failing in this, she again wasted away; and this has been repeated over and over to this day; and it always will be until the end of time.

To assist her in lighting the earth at night the Little Turtle made many lights and fastened them to the sky; these are the fixed stars that have no course, and which do not "run about the sky." Sometimes they fall off the sky; thus does the Wyandot account for the meteors or "shooting stars."

From her labours in the heavens and the important functions which the Little Turtle exercised, she was called Wah-trohn'-yoh-noh'-neh, "The Keeper of the Heavens," or "She who takes care of the Sky." This is still a name for women in the Little Turtle Clan of the Wyandots, and perhaps the oldest name belonging to this Clan. Mrs. Nancy Stannard, on the Wyandot Reservation, Indian Territory, is of the Little Turtle Clan, and is so named.

THE WYANDOTS BELIEVE THE COMET IS THE CLOUD IN WHICH THE LITTLE TURTLE WENT UP TO THE SKY, BURNISHED AND BRIGHTENED BY THE LITTLE TURTLE WITH RAYS TAKEN FROM THE MIDDAY SUN. IN THIS SHE RIDES THROUGH THE HEAVENS TO PERFORM HER DUTIES. ABOUT 1882 THERE WAS A LARGE COMET, VISIBLE IN KANSAS CITY, KANSAS. IT COULD BE SEEN ONLY IN THE EARLY MORNING. ON MY WAY TO MY OFFICE VERY EARLY ONE MORNING, LATE IN THE FALL, I MET MATTHIAS SPLITLOG. FROM WHERE WE STOOD WE HAD A SPLENDID VIEW OF THE COMET. "SEE!" SAID MR. SPLITLOG, "THERE IS THE CHARIOT OF OUR GRANDMOTHER, THE LITTLE TURTLE." THEN HE TOLD ME WHY IT WAS SO CALLED.

THE TWINS BORN
[THE GOOD CREATOR AND THE BAD CREATOR]

The Great Island was the Woman's home. It was not then so large as it afterwards was made. The Woman went all about the Great Island. She was
very sad. But in her wanderings she found a Lodge, and living in it an old woman. She called the old woman Shooh"-tah'ah, "her Grandmother".
In the Wyandot mythology the point where the Lodge of the old woman stood is called by a Wyandot word which means "The place where the Woman that
fell from heaven met (or found) her Grandmother."

The Woman lived with her Grandmother. She is well now, her sickness having disappeared. To her were born the Two Children, The Brothers,
The Twins. Of these Children, one was Good, the other Bad. Their Grandfather, the Mighty Ruler, directed how the Twins should be named. The Good One was named Tseh'-stah, "Made of Fire", or the "Man who was made of Fire". The Bad One was named Tah'-weh-skah'-reh, "Made of Flint", or "The Man who was made of Flint".

THE GREAT ISLAND ENLARGED

The Twins grew to manhood after awhile. The Bad Creator did evil continually. The Good Creator was unwilling to resist his brother continuously,
although when he chose to do so he could overcome him.

That all cause for the actions of The Bad Creator might be removed, the brothers agreed to enlarge the Great Island. They successfully did this. The land in the East was the land of The Good Creator; that in the West belonged to The Bad Creator.

(Whether the modern opinion that the land was divided into Eastern and Western divisions is correct or not, we cannot now tell. The descriptions of the divisions would seem to indicate that they were in fact North and South divisions. I have followed what the Wyandots told me. W. E. Coonelley.)

THE MODIFICATION OF THE GREAT ISLAND

But the land was desolate, a solitude. Beside the Woman and the Two Brothers, only the Animals lived upon it.

When the Twins had finished enlarging the Great Island they made a further agreement to prepare it for the habitation of man, and other animals
than those first found here. Each brother was to go through his own land. He was to make his realm to conform in surface, animals, birds, streams, lakes,
plants, etc., to his own conceptions of utility and beauty. The works of each were to be subject to the modification of the other, but neither was to absolutely
change the character of any work of the other, nor was he to totally destroy it.

Each brother now went his way, and did that which was proper in his own eyes. They were engaged in this work for untold ages. When their
works were finished, they met again as they had agreed.

When The Bad Creator inspected the works of The Good Creator he believed they were much too good. Accordingly, he diminished their good qualities
to the utmost of his power.

The animals, birds, and fishes good for food are the gifts of Thew Good Creator. They, and all other animals, were made gentle, harmless. Tooth nor claw
was ever made to be turned upon the Wyandot; no animal thirsted for his blood. In lieu of their gentle natures, The Bad Creator made them to
have wild and fierce dispositions. He frightened them until they fled from the light of day and only left their lairs at night.

The gentle undulations of the park-like woods were changed to rough hills and endless mountain ranges; and rocks, thorns, bushes, briers, and brambles were scattered broadcast to plague the peoples. He sprinkled his own blood over the land and each drop of it made a ragged flint-stone which lay in wait to rend and cut the peoples' feet.

Water would not drown, but The Bad Creator gave it an evil spirit to make it take the life of the people. Evil spirits were placed at many waterfalls to drag down and destroy Wyandots. The maple tree furnished a pure syrup, but The Bad Creator poured water over the tree and reduced its sweetness to what we find it at this day.

THe Good Creator made the corn plant. It grew without cultivation, and a hundred ears were found upon a single stalk. The Bad Creator made it difficult to raise, and but a few ears were permitted to grow on one stalk. The bean-pod grew upon a tree, and was as long as a person's arm; it was filled with beans as large as the turkey's egg, and which were richer than bear's fat. The tree was dwarfed to a helpless vine, and the pod was so reduced that it was no longer than a persons'finger.

[Reversal of the Teays River? - epg]

But the wrath of The Bad Creator rose into fury when he beheld the rivers as made by The Good Creator. They were made with two currents, flowing in opposite directions, one by each bank, so that the Indian could go either up or down the streams without the labour of paddling his canoe. The Bad Creator thrust his big hand into the river and gave the waters a great swish or splash and mixed them, forcing both currents into only one, and this he made to run always in but one direction.

The Good Creator found the works of The Bad Creator much too large and very bad. Bare mountains of rock pierced the sky. Endless swamps and quagmires were spread abroad. Huge beasts, reptiles, birds, and insects were at every point to terrify and destroy the people. The North Wind stood guardian of the land, and with snows and bitter blasts swept this western world. ICICLES MILES ANA MILES IN LENGTH hung from the ragged cliffs. Myriads and millions of mosquitoes, each as large as the pheasant, swarmed up from the fetid marshes of the South. Nothing was Good, everything was Bad.

All the works of The Bad Creator were modified and their evil qualities reduced to the utmost degree to which he could go by The Good Creator. But whatever of evil there is in this world comes from The Bad Creator and his wicked works.

PEOPLE BROUGHT TO THE GREAT ISLAND

When the Animals went into the sky, the world was in despair. The Mountains shrieked and the Earth groaned continually. The rivers and the
Great Water rocked to and fro in their beds, and all the beasts cried aloud for their Mothers, the Animals. The Trees wept tears of blood and the Four
Winds rent one another in madness and wrath.

The Good Creator and The Bad Creator met to devise a plan to people the Great Island. The place where this meeting was held (it is called a Council,
in the Wyandot) is called the Point of Separation; for the Wyandots say it was held on the line separating the land of the Good Brother from the land
of the Bad One.

(The Wyandots came afterwards to believe that the Mississippi River was this line. The descriptions given by the Wyandots would
seem to point to Northern and Southern divisions instead of Eastern and Western. I have followed the Wyandots in this matter, although it seems
that they were in error as to what the ancient belief actually was upon this subject. WEC)

The agreement as finally made between the Twins provided that they should bring people to the Great Island from the land of the Mighty Ruler
in heaven. Each was to people his own land, and rule over it without interference from the other.

The Good Creator brought to his land Wyandots only.

The Bad Creator brought with him many kinds of people, some good and some bad. Some accounts say that the Brothers created these people
outright.

The people of each Brother multiplied. In time they became many peoples.

THE FIRST WAR, AND
THE FIRST WORKS OF THE GREAT ISLAND DESTROYED

The ancient compact between the brothers was continually violated by The Bad Creator and his people.
The result was a war between the brothers and their respective peoples.

This war lasted many ages. So fierce and devastating was it that all the works made by the brothers, in the beginning, was destroyed. The Good
Brother was so closely pressed by the Bad Brother that he made the Little People to assist him in his warfare against The Bad Creator and his people.
By their aid The Good Creator overcame his wicked brother and his followers.

The Good Creator pursued The Bad Creator when he fled into his own dominions. The former was armed with the horns of a deer; the latter with the flowering branch which he had torn from the wild apple tree, which fell down from heaven with his Mother.

When The Bad Creator entered his own land in his flight from his victorious brother, he was bleeding from many wounds inflicted by the horns of the deer in his brother's hands. Where this blood fell upon the ground it was congealed into flint-stones as sharp as knives, to hinder the pursuit of The Good Creator. But all his resources availed The Bad Creator nothing. He was beaten down to the earth and slain with the horns by The Good Creator, his brother.

THE RE-CREATION BY THE GOOD CREATOR OF THE WORKS OF THE GREAT ISLAND

THE WAR HAD DESOLATED THE GREAT ISLAND. THIS DESTRUCTION WAS CAUSED
BY THE USE OF FIRE BY THE GOOD CREATOR AND OF THE USE OF THE NORTH WIND BY THE BAD CREATOR. NO MEANS OF SUBSISTENCE WERE LEFT.

To preserve his people until he could re-create the destroyed works of the Great Island, The Good Creator built the Yooh'-wah-tah'-yoh, or great underground City or subterranean Dwelling, far to the north of Montreal's present site. [These may be igloos.-epg]
Into this he led his people, and then went forth to his work of reconstruction.

Here the people were in a torpid state, like turtles and toads and snakes in winter. They were lying about the [Underground] City in all positions, and they retained only a partial conscious ness. THE WOMAN WHO FELL DOWN FROM HEAVEN RULED OVER THEM WITH HER FIERY TORCH GIVEN BY HEH-NOH, THE THUNDER GOD.

In making these things anew, The Good Creator could only reproduce them as they were before their destruction in the war, and as they had been left by the
modifications of himself and The Bad Creator. This work required an immense length of time. After ages had elapsed, The Good Creator came back to the
Yoh'-wah-tah'-yoh. He said the work was done, and that it was yet too new for use. They could not go out until the Earth was ripened by the Sun.

From the point in the Yooh'-wah-tah'-yoh where the Wyandots were, a glimmering of light could be seen, and Tseh'-stah often went to this small
opening to observe the progress of the process of ripening which the world was undergoing. His uniform report when he returned from these inspections was
that the world was yet too new for use.

After the Wyandots had waited many ages here, the world was ready for their use again. One day in spring The Good Creator went forth from the Yooh'-
wah-tah'-yoh by the small opening. He looked about the whole of the Great Island. He saw it was indeed ready to receive the people for whom it had been
created, and for whom all the work of Nature cried out both day and night.

HE RETURNED TO THE YOOH'-WAH-TAH'-YOH WHERE SAT THE WOMAN WHO FELL DOWN FROM HEAVEN WITH HER TORCH OF FIRE GIVEN BY HEH'-NOH, THE THUNDER GOD. He announced to his Mother that the world cried aloud for her children. She said to him: "My son, lead them forth in the Order of Precedence and Encampment. They shall come to me on their journey to the land of the Little People."

[This is the south, as will be seen. epg]

THEN THE GOOD CREATOR CAUSED THE EARTH TO QUAKE AND TO ROCK TO ITS FOUNDATION HEH'-NOH SHOOK THE HEAVENS AND ROLLED OVER THE GREAT WATERS WITH HIS THUNDER. ALL THE SKY FLAMED WITH HIS FIERY DARTS. THE GREAT YOOH'-WAH-TAH'-YOH WAS RENT ASUNDER.

A nation stood marshalled to go forth. They marched to the waiting world. The hills, the waters, the beasts, the trees, the birds, and
the fishes cried out with welcome to the nation born of the earth in a day. They found the earth decked with flowers, and songs of joy poured out from
the forests filled with happy birds.

They found some of the people of The Bad Creator still living on the Great Island. (Their preservation is not accounted for. WEC)

Here ends the Song of the Creation, as sung by Captain Bull-Head and William Big-Town.
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels

Postby E.P. Grondine » Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:36 am

THE WITCH BUFFALOES
[MAMMOTH AND MASTODON]

In the land of Silence, The Good Creator made the largest and most beautiful Spring in all his dominions. This is now the Big Bone Licks in Boone County,
Kentucky. It is "the big Spring which flowed in ancient times," and which may be properly rendered "The Great Ancient Spring." The modern Wyandot
name for it is Oh'-tseh-yooh'-mah, "The Spring of bitter water."

THE GOOD CREATOR MADE THIS SPRING AT THIS POINT BECAUSE HERE STOOD THE LODGE OF SHOOH_TAH, WITH WHOM DWELT THE WOMAN WHO FELL DOWN FROM HEAVEN. THE TWO BOYS WERE BORN HERE. [THE GOOD CREATOR AND THE BAD CREATOR-epg] From this Spring, which was then small, drank "The Man of Fire" and "The Man of Flint," in the days of their childhood.

As enlarged by The Good Creator the Ancient Spring was so broad that the eye could not see from one bank to the other. Its waters were so clear that the
smallest pebble could be seen at the bottom of its inconceivable depths. Then it was the "Great Ancient Spring." As modified by The Bad Creator it
was reduced to its present size and became Oh'-tseh-yooh'-mah, "The Spring of Bitter Water."

[This may refer to the reversal of the Teays River - epg]

The Wyandots described these Springs as "the great and ancient Spring where the bones are and where the animals come to drink and to see each other. ' '

The Bad Creator made a great drum or gong, of stone or flint, and put it at these Springs. He put in charge of the Springs the Witch Buffaloes,
who made unjust rules and oppressive regulations for the government of the people and animals coming to use the waters.

Elks were admitted to the Springs; when they had been there a stated time they were forced out, and buffaloes admitted, and so of all the animals. The Witch Buffaloes indicated their wishes, and gave forth their orders and commands by beating on the great drum of flint, which could be heard as far as the Great Lakes.

[The Mammoth Trumpet, so to speak]

The Witch Buffaloes are represented as having been as tall as a tree, with horns as long as a man is high. Their horns stood straight out from their
foreheads. They are always spoken of in the feminine gender.

So oppressive became the Witch Buffaloes that no animal was free to approach the Springs, and thus were the Wyandots prohibited from lying in
wait to slay them for food as they came to drink. Neither were the Wyandots allowed to go there to make salt.

Finally the Little People took pity on the Wyandots and resolved to destroy the Witch Buffaloes. Two of the Little People were directed to go to the Springs to perform this difficult task. It required long preliminary work to make ready for the slaughter. When all was ready they attacked the Witch Buffaloes and slew
all but a single one, which they wounded, and which only escaped by so enormous a leap that it passed beyond the Great Lakes at the single bound. After
the Witch Buffaloes were killed and expelled, the Little People assembled all the animals and said to them and to the Wyandots,

"Drink as you will. We are forever the keepers of the Oh'-tseh-yooh'-mah."

[The Little People were most likely the anomalous mt DNA which shows up in Cherokee, who came up from South America bringing Clovis fluted weapons with them. The Ocanachee and Yuchi were their more direct descendants.]

The great number of huge bones found by white men at the Big Bone Licks were the bones of the Witch Buffaloes.

The footprints of the two Little People can be yet seen in the stones all over that part of Kentucky about these Springs. They made them while
driving all the Witch Buffaloes to the Springs for slaughter. At some points may be seen also the impressions of their bodies and of their bows and quivers
on the stone where they sat or lay down.

So say the legends of the Wyandots.
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels

Postby E.P. Grondine » Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:53 am

EXTRACTS FROM THE SHAWNEE VERSION

THE BATTLE OF THE GOOD MIND AND THE BAD MIND

One of the Twins was the Creator [the Good Spirit, Wessi Manitou, elsewhere in the manuscript] and the other the Destroyer, or the Bad Spirit (Maeche Manitou, the Bad Creator). The first was born properly. The second was not born properly; He was born from his mother's side.

Both of them started off. The Good Creator headed for the Center (Taheliki), just there he came, and then they both came to the Center (Taheliki).

Then one of them wanted to know what they were going to do,
then one of them went to the East, the other to the West,
One of them by turning went towards the place where the Sun rises(East).

"Let us go (to the Center)" the Bad Creator said to the Good Creator,
"There we will look at what each of us has created.

"Too much and too good have you created everything", the Bad Creator said.
"you have given them too much - you have created too much good."

For everything was created so well that people would altogether be too lazy.

[Dougherty(?) elucidated this as "When the Bad Mind went west, he returned, and said to the Good Mind, "You created everything too well, the children will be too lazy."]

Then the Good Creator spoke to the Evil Creator.
"Everything too badly you have created, even large snakes [COMETS] even those which will kill people. You have badly created even worse than that."

[Dougherty(?) told this as "To the Bad Spirit the Good Spirit said, "You created everything wrong while going west - big snakes would kill a person, thorns (cactus, most likely a later western insertion of detail) - and your creations would be obnoxious to people.]

Now then they were returning back to where they started.
Then the Good Creator asked the Bad Creator, "What are you afraid of?"
"Of horns", he [the Bad Creator] answered.
"And what are you afraid of?", he [the Bad Creator] asked.
"Of flagweeds (hapwaki), they will strangle me if you strike me.
[I think it most likely that these "flags" were some kind of poison used in hunting.]

Then the Bad Creator said "You first"
"Then not you will be first in turn? That is agreeable.", said the Good Creator.
Then he ran towards the sunrise (east). In that direction he ran, and the Bad Creator followed.

Ten times, twelve times, they piled the flags upon one another, until they reached the piles of flags came to an end, and then they returned to the Center.

Then the Bad Creator ran to the west. In that direction he ran, and the Good Creator ran after him.
Ten times, twelve times, horns were piled in that direction.
The Good Creator picked up the horns as he was running, and he stuck the Bad Creator with these horns.

Then the Good Creator put a rock on himself, and then the Bad Creator struck him with these horns until he tore to pieces his own garment.
Thus he [the Good Creator] killed him [the Bad Creator].

[THE IMPACTS - The order of directions given here, south, east, north, and west are most likely ritualistic, but may preserve some memory of sequence.]

Then the Good Creator built a fire, as he wanted to burn the Bad Creator up.

Then while the Bad Creator's heart was in the fire, it burst out, to the South.
The Good Creator went and grabbed it, caught it, and threw it back into the fire again.

Then it [the Bad Creator's heart] burst from the fire to the East, and
The Good Creator grabbed it, caught it, and threw it back into the fire again.

Then it [the Bad Creator's heart] burst from the fire to the North, and
The Good Creator grabbed it, caught it, and threw it back into the fire again.

Then it [the Bad Creator's heart] burst from the fire to the West, and
The Good Creator grabbed it, caught it, and threw it back into the fire again,
this time bursting. It burst under the ground.

"That's what I want to do with him", and then the Good Creator stamped on top of the ground.
He jumped up and down on where the Bad Creator's heart had finally burst.

Then the Good Creator thought of going home.
When he came there close to where they lived [Kokumthena (Grandmother, the Creator), the Good Creator, and the Bad Creator],
and then he heard somebody at where they stayed.

He stopped a little while, and then started to go to the place again.
There he met Grandmother [Kokumthena, the Creator], and she told him
"You [the Good Creator] have been naughty", she said.
YOU HAVE BURNT THE SKIN OFF OF HIM."

THE CREATION OF PEOPLE

Then the Good Creator felt bad, and he started to go about feeling very bad.
Then he went to the Buffalo Lick, and there he sat down.

[After this the Good Mind created the first man and first woman at the Buffalo Lick.
This Buffalo Lick may be identified with Big (Salt) Lick, just to the south of the modern city of Cincinatti, Ohio, as the active flint quarries show this area to have been occupied by the survivors after the Holocene Start Impacts.]
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:28 pm

And in all of the horse manure,
not only are the effects of these impacts on the Pacific Current ignored,
but the events in South America are as well:

http://www.nature.com/articles/srep21064
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Re: The timing of the rise in sea levels

Postby uniface » Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:20 pm

This Buffalo Lick may be identified with Big (Salt) Lick, just to the south of the modern city of Cincinatti, Ohio, as the active flint quarries show this area to have been occupied by the survivors after the Holocene Start Impacts.


Interesting.

FWIW, that stretch of the Ohio was one of the most densely populated Paleoindian centers before (presumably) the big changes. More people --> better chance of survivors ?

Late Paleo-Holocene: http://www.andywhiteanthropology.com/bl ... th-america

Holocene : http://www.andywhiteanthropology.com/bl ... th-america
uniface
 

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