A very good first step

The Western Hemisphere. General term for the Americas following their discovery by Europeans, thus setting them in contradistinction to the Old World of Africa, Europe, and Asia.

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A very good first step

Postby E.P. Grondine » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:59 am

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories ... -step.html

A real relief - The beginning of understanding.

This is Colin Renfew's diffusion versus migration problem in the Americas.

A complicating factor here is the general North American Native American practice
of assimilation.

Also, in the case of the Southern Ceremonial Complex, its adoption by existing peoples and the later changes they made to it.

Besides the DNA, which is rock hard and undeniable evidence, there are physical remains of higher culture.

Another comparison between Europe and the Americas is in the study of oral traditions.
In Europe, we have studies of the "Homeric" cycles and Celtic bardic traditions, while in North America we have had nothing.

Finally, there is a new factor in the environment and human development to examine, which was the impacts of asteroids and comets.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: A very good first step

Postby uniface » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:03 am

Meh.

He's sticking up for Boaz. Or rather propping him up.

Franz Boaz, the great Moses who concocted "Anthropology" out of thin air and, with his wealthy supporters in the drivers' seats where university anthro programs / appointments and "scholarly journal" subsidies were concerned, imposed it on the unresisting yokels here who were too bemused to see through it.

The First Commandment -- made categorically and unsupported by anything -- was that humanity differed only in trivial, inessential respects like stature and skin color. In all "important" respects, they were all born as "blank slates," with their superficial differences being due to the differing ways they were written- (or scribbled-) on by the "societies" in which they lived.

In simpler terms, he declared the realm of the organic irrelevant to human nature and culture. No one calling this into question (or, worse yet, demonstrating it fallacious) was suffered to remain employed anywhere the establishment's writ ran. Nor were "scholarly journals" other than openly hostile to what was/is, in what is clearly the belief system (the legacy of the Prophet Boaz) they uphold in common, heresy.

Unfortunately however, people (cultures) under ordinary conditions, are susceptible to change only within limits.

Until this sinks in (and good luck with that, as it would require simple honesty), we will continue to be inundated in pontifical assurances that, for example, "independent invention" (regarded, like the rest of their dogma, as self-evident) would have allowed the Asiatics (whoever and whatever they may have been then) to have replicated the Solutrians' knapping technology had they felt any need to, (defusing any suspicion of connection between nature and nurture) despite the fact that, although they had 20,000 years to do that, they never did.

To them, content to do what they did the unchanging-for-millenia ways they did it, Solutrian lithic technology would have been as irrelevant as a watch repairman's tool kit to a bicycle mechanic. And it is precisely in this -- in the reflection of different mentalities in different technologies -- that Boaz is falsified.

Japanese people do Japanese things Japanese ways for Japanese reasons.

History and Culture are Organic.
uniface
 

Re: A very good first step

Postby uniface » Sun Jun 14, 2015 4:41 pm

This does not purport to "prove" what I'm saying. Only illustrate it.
Analysis of the genomes of 101 individuals who lived in Europe and Central Asia during the Bronze Age—between 5,000 and 3,000 years ago—suggests that the economic and social changes that occurred during this period were due to massive migrations. “Cultural change is actually happening because people are moving around and not just through the spread of ideas,” Eske Willerslev of the Natural History Museum of Denmark said in a video clip included in a press release.

http://www.archaeology.org/news/3394-15 ... migrations
uniface
 

Re: A very good first step

Postby shawomet » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:07 am

Seems like both situations could occur. One size does not fit all. Then you also have things like the really remarkable similarity in artifacts of slate and bone in the circumpolar region. Slate and bone artifacts from the Maritime Archaic of the far Northeast of North America are very similar to slate and bone artifacts from Scandinavia. Usually attributed to cultural convergence in similar environments. Or, if one prefers, independent invention vs. cultural diffusion.

https://books.google.com/books?id=bu8nS ... on&f=false

Nonetheless, earlier in the 20th century, the notion that there was contact between and among circumpolar people, to the point of speaking of a "circumpolar culture", was very much considered possible. It was the theme of the Nova special "Secrets of the Lost Red Paint People" in fact......

http://www.bullfrogfilms.com/catalog/paint.html
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Re: A very good first step

Postby E.P. Grondine » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:44 am

One example of Boaz apparat that particularly irritates me is Mooney's Cherokee studies.

In them, stories of constellations are mixed in with children's moral tales, tales for entertainment, etc. They're all about birds, after all.

But Lepper finally admitting the existence of ethnography is a very good first step for him,
and I am pleased with this article. I am constantly plagued with the problem of Hopewell PEOPLE and Adena PEOPLE, as well as THE MOUNDBUILDERS, when they did not exist as PEOPLES.

A right regal pain in the ass.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: A very good first step

Postby E.P. Grondine » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:49 am

One power full tool which is now available for sorting out migration versus diffusion
is mt DNA evidence.

Given the human propensity to f**k, Hardachre's observation,
Y DNA does not work very well for this.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: A very good first step

Postby kbs2244 » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:37 am

RE:
Your first post;
I always considered the difference between a “people” and a “nation” to be the recognized by others of the control of an area of real estate.
A cultural group is a “people” until they become a “nation” with real estate control.
A current day example is the Kurds.
They are referred to as “the Kurdish people” because they have no internationally recognized control of any dirt.
That is what they are fighting Turkey and Iraq for.
If and when they are the recognized controller of an area with defined borders, then ambassadors are traded, and they become a “nation.”
Were your cultural groups "peoples" or "nations"?
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Re: A very good first step

Postby uniface » Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:46 pm

I am constantly plagued with the problem of Hopewell PEOPLE


Has a nicer ring to it than "Hopewell Interaction Sphere" :lol:

In the end, 90% of what people concern themselves with is grammar & semantics. They get lost in them & never find their ways back out again, it seems.
uniface
 

Re: A very good first step

Postby E.P. Grondine » Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:19 am

kbs2244 wrote:RE:
Your first post;
I always considered the difference between a “people” and a “nation” to be the recognized by others of the control of an area of real estate.
A cultural group is a “people” until they become a “nation” with real estate control.
A current day example is the Kurds.
They are referred to as “the Kurdish people” because they have no internationally recognized control of any dirt.
That is what they are fighting Turkey and Iraq for.
If and when they are the recognized controller of an area with defined borders, then ambassadors are traded, and they become a “nation.”
Were your cultural groups "peoples" or "nations"?


Hi KB -

The modern concept of nation was not held by members of the various "Hopewell"
CONFEDERATIONS. For example, members of the Haudonshone (sp? The Long House)
also consider themselves members of "tribes" (Mohawk Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, Seneca, Tuscarora), while residents of Pennsylvania usually consider themselves "Americans" (US citizens.)

But those peoples never considered themselves "New York Hopewell" or some such.

"Hopewell Interaction Sphere" is a useful concept, indicating the area in which they principles of confederation and inter-tribal relations were adopted.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: A very good first step

Postby E.P. Grondine » Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:27 am

The European - Asian anthropological concept of "empire" does not work in North America, but can be used in Central America.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: A very good first step

Postby E.P. Grondine » Tue Jun 16, 2015 10:51 am

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.c ... mai-160704

This is more very good news.

I see that Lepper is learning about "Late Fort Ancient" culture.

I still am of the opinion that Ohio's Native American sites would be better managed by Ohio's Department of Natural Resources,
rather than the preivately run "Ohio" Historical Society.

While that worked in the late 1800's it will not work today for governmental structural reasons.
The resources and the political control of those resources necessary for the tasks
exceed those of the old system.

In a more positive way,
I am also of the opinion that the "Ohio" historical Society does an excellent job with Ohio's colonial and later cultural resources.
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: A very good first step

Postby kbs2244 » Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:52 am

So you are saying the cultural identification overrode any geographical identification?
And they felt no need for a goegraphical "home land" to anchor their ID?
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Re: A very good first step

Postby E.P. Grondine » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:19 am

kbs2244 wrote:So you are saying the cultural identification overrode any geographical identification?
And they felt no need for a geographical "home land" to anchor their ID?


If I understand your question, the answer is "no".

Perhaps you might want to rephrase it, kb.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: A very good first step

Postby uniface » Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:27 am

Seems like both situations could occur. One size does not fit all. Then you also have things like the really remarkable similarity in artifacts of slate and bone in the circumpolar region. Slate and bone artifacts from the Maritime Archaic of the far Northeast of North America are very similar to slate and bone artifacts from Scandinavia. Usually attributed to cultural convergence in similar environments. Or, if one prefers, independent invention vs. cultural diffusion.

Because that's what allegiance to the Prophet Boaz's dicta necessitates.

In decades past, the trans-Atlantic similarities were so overwealmingly numerous and consistent that Danish archaeologists treated the whole thing as one culture.

But when there is an overriding belief (with a political agenda driving it) involved (as here), two pints and one quart are two entirely different things.

George Orwell on Doublethink wrote:To know and to not know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy is impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy. To forget, whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself.


You cannot go very far into North American prehistory (or politics or culture) without running into this, so you might as well get on top of it once and for all. IMO
uniface
 

Re: A very good first step

Postby Kalopin » Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:17 pm

uniface wrote:
Seems like both situations could occur. One size does not fit all. Then you also have things like the really remarkable similarity in artifacts of slate and bone in the circumpolar region. Slate and bone artifacts from the Maritime Archaic of the far Northeast of North America are very similar to slate and bone artifacts from Scandinavia. Usually attributed to cultural convergence in similar environments. Or, if one prefers, independent invention vs. cultural diffusion.

Because that's what allegiance to the Prophet Boaz's dicta necessitates.

In decades past, the trans-Atlantic similarities were so overwealmingly numerous and consistent that Danish archaeologists treated the whole thing as one culture.

But when there is an overriding belief (with a political agenda driving it) involved (as here), two pints and one quart are two entirely different things.

George Orwell on Doublethink wrote:To know and to not know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy is impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy. To forget, whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself.


You cannot go very far into North American prehistory (or politics or culture) without running into this, so you might as well get on top of it once and for all. IMO


Thanks Uni.

I feel I owe you and E.P. an apology for the loss of your discussions, especially "Giants" as you had put some excellent work into and had so many views [more than 12k]!
The truth appears to be too controversial?
...anyway I believe the Danish archaeologists were correct in their assumption.
Kalopin
 

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