Norse on Baffin Island

The Western Hemisphere. General term for the Americas following their discovery by Europeans, thus setting them in contradistinction to the Old World of Africa, Europe, and Asia.

Moderators: Minimalist, MichelleH

Norse on Baffin Island

Postby kbs2244 » Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:53 pm

Norse on Baffin Island
And they are supposed to be there.

Oh Boy!

Do I dare say “Politics as usual?”

“This will mean a re-write of our history”
Right when her employer is becoming a historical musum.
How many apple carts would she be overturning?

At least she got her NGS exposure.
I would hope that would get her alternative funding.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/travel/Ott ... story.html
kbs2244
 
Posts: 2320
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:47 pm

Re: Norse on Baffin Island

Postby uniface » Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:17 pm

Wow.
uniface
 

Re: Norse on Baffin Island

Postby kbs2244 » Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:41 pm

The important thing, in my mind, is that Baffin Island is at the mouth of Hudson Bay.
Hudson Bay is, of course, huge.

But once you are in it you have access to all of Canada east of the Rockies and north of the Great lakes.

That is a whole lot of trading territory.

And a lot of horizon for an exploring minded Norseman.
(And he wouldn’t be there if he wasn’t that kind of guy.)
kbs2244
 
Posts: 2320
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:47 pm

Re: Norse on Baffin Island

Postby uniface » Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:56 pm

Copper.
uniface
 

Re: Norse on Baffin Island

Postby kbs2244 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:21 pm

You may have a very good idea.
Lake Nipigon is connected to Lake Superior not far from the copper deposits in the north shore.
From it there would be a short and somewhat flat portage to the headwaters of the Albany River, or others, which flow into James Bay and thus to Hudson Bay.

More round about but a much more open water trip than the usually purposed St Lawrence River route.

If I remember correctly, the Swedes didn’t mind river navigation.
They went all through Russia.
But the Norwegians preferred the open sea.
kbs2244
 
Posts: 2320
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:47 pm

Re: Norse on Baffin Island

Postby uniface » Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:39 pm

There's a lot about it in E.P.'s book.

I'm not that intelligent on my own :lol:
uniface
 

Re: Norse on Baffin Island

Postby kbs2244 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:58 pm

Well…
E.P. does talk about the export of copper to Europe.
(Something I am a believer in.)
But he talks about the St Lawrence and then more southern routes.
Those routes make a lot of sense since they are mostly downstream.
It is easy to travel down hill.

This northern route would mean a minor up stream start before the down stream slid to the open water.

But you were a sailor that preferred the open water sailing to river paddling it may have been worth the small difficulty at the start of the trip.
(Or matbe you just traded for the copper at the river mouth from those that did it for you.)

I do not recall this possible route being discussed before.
kbs2244
 
Posts: 2320
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:47 pm

Re: Norse on Baffin Island

Postby Minimalist » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:37 pm

Oh, FFS.

http://www.ramtops.co.uk/copper.html

MYTH: The third misstatement has to do with repeated suggestions of Old World contact, such as in the following two segments: "This new wave of "open-mindedness" brought additional scientific theories regarding the Copper Culture people. It was further believed that a Norse King named Woden-lithi left his mark near Toronto in the year 1700 B.C. He left behind petroglyphs and writings to indicate his visit was a trading mission for a well-established copper trade that was known to have existed in the Lake Superior Region some 1000 years before his visit. Evidently the Keweenaw copper industry was well established when the Norse King paid North America a visit!" (Sodders 1990:13) and "it appears entire flotillas of Norse, Baltic and Celtic ships crossed the Atlantic to enter into trade wars with the Algonquians for rich mineral deposits" (Sodders 1990:14).
FACT: There is absolutely no archaeological evidence that anyone but indigenous Americans and subsequent French, British and Euro-American miners took copper from the Keweenaw. In contrast to speculative stuff and nonsense, here's an actual archaeological fact to consider: all cultures make garbage! Show me some Norse garbage reliably dated to 1700 B.C. in the Toronto area in pristine context and I'll sign on readily in support of these hypotheses! What does it take to support them? Archaeological data! It's not much to ask, given the firm conclusions that have been reached by some authors. If these conclusions are to be accepted by science, scientific standards of skeptical inquiry must be upheld. Otherwise it's archaeo-illogic, not archaeology. Large-scale migrations leave evidence: witness the global evidence of the expansion of European technologies during the fifteenth-sixteenth century A.D. If Bronze Age folks transported themselves to North America there'd be something left behind as material evidence. Anyone who's ever been on a prehistoric archaeological site in the Upper Great Lakes knows what levels of trash can be generated by low-level-consumer cultures such as those of American prehistory. Why, in contrast to everyone else in world history, are these alleged Bronze Age people so neat, tidy, and garbage-free?
The competent excavation of many prehistoric archaeological sites in the Lake Superior basin reveals the continuous use of copper throughout the prehistoric time range, in association with all of the other items of material culture (projectile points, pottery and the like) that are without a doubt the products of native technologies. Many of these sites have been dated reliably by radiocarbon means (Table 1). Clearly, copper-working continues up until the years of aboriginal contact with seventeenth-century Europeans. The speculators could at least acknowledge these facts rather than pretend that the association of copper with indigenous people doesn't exist. The fact is, the campsites of indigenous peoples of the Upper Great Lakes contain everything consistent with a long-lived continuous regional hunting/gathering/fishing adaptation, and contain nothing attributable to European cultures until the seventeenth century A.D.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Minimalist
 
Posts: 15445
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Norse on Baffin Island

Postby uniface » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:26 pm

You obviously didn't bother reading E. P.'s book.

Either that, or your reading comprehension (memory ?) needs a tune-up.
uniface
 

Re: Norse on Baffin Island

Postby Minimalist » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:52 pm

I did read it. We have had this discussion.

For now let's just say I was not impressed.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Minimalist
 
Posts: 15445
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Norse on Baffin Island

Postby E.P. Grondine » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:03 am

Just to clear this up, while I did cover the copper trade, I did NOT write about NORSE on Lake Superior at 1700 BCE.

Go back and re-read my book for the people, the times, and the routes.

The Five Nations' memories of their interaction with the Norse were passed on in my book, and line up exactly with Norse records.

As far as the depth of Norse penetration along Hudson Bay, I think Farley Mowat's "The Far-farers" is interesting conjecture.

I have not gone through any of the materials on the local peoples for their memories of Norse contact at that time. For those interested in this topic, I believe it would be most productive to review Byzantine records for imports of North American animal products - in other words, if I were working that problem, that is how I would attack it.

My own interests are elsewhere.

If OA wants to write about Norse Templars pursuing beautiful and handsome teen vampires to Minnesota, good luck to him. He could even make his Templar a Norse-Irish holy man. :P

min, we've been through middle bronze age chronology, and religious and nationalist bias, and text sources before. Over and over and over again. The chronology I assembled before my stroke still seems to me to hold up pretty well, as its based on contemporary documents and excavated materials only.

That Old Testament chronology agrees with it "in a particular way" is a separate item. I've had a stroke, and can't really do any more work on it right now. If anyone has some cash that they want to donate to the Oriental Institute for their excavations in the area, please send a mention to them that I suggested it to you along with your check.

(I would like to add to this that I do not think that an Israeli airstrike on Iran's nuclear facilities flying through Turkey and Syria would be a very good idea. I am still very sorrowed by Rabin's assassination, and certainly hope that events in that area do not intrude in any way upon my work here this year. I am very, very tired of that particular ride.

If there is not some kind of peace agreement between the Israelis and the Palestinians, it is going to be damned hard for future archaeologists to excavate in this area in NBC suits.)
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
User avatar
E.P. Grondine
 
Posts: 1919
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:36 am

Re: Norse on Baffin Island

Postby Minimalist » Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:32 pm

E.P.

I don't regard your OT chronology with any more respect than I do your First Nations folklore. Sorry.

I want scientific evidence....not folklore.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Minimalist
 
Posts: 15445
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Norse on Baffin Island

Postby E.P. Grondine » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:55 am

Minimalist wrote:E.P.

I don't regard your OT chronology with any more respect than I do your First Nations folklore. Sorry.

I want scientific evidence....not folklore.


min, there are two different chronologies involved.
One does not use OT materials at all.
The other is a note on the correspondences of that with OT source materials.

As far as First Nations "folklore" goes, the correspondences are with geological and archaeological evidence.

Thanks for your contribution to The List.
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
User avatar
E.P. Grondine
 
Posts: 1919
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:36 am

Re: Norse on Baffin Island

Postby oldarchystudent » Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:56 am

Isn't this what Farley Mowatt (sometimes maligned as "Hardly Know-it") was talking about in either "West Viking" or "The Farfarers" many years ago?
My karma ran over my dogma.
User avatar
oldarchystudent
 
Posts: 562
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:34 am
Location: Canada

Re: Norse on Baffin Island

Postby kbs2244 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:09 pm

What is the time frame for Farley Mowatt idea?
As I read it, hers is right around 1000 AD

But copper would not be the only reason to be there.
The furs and ivory to be had would be reason enough.
kbs2244
 
Posts: 2320
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:47 pm

Next

Return to New World

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron