Europeans in Michigan

The Western Hemisphere. General term for the Americas following their discovery by Europeans, thus setting them in contradistinction to the Old World of Africa, Europe, and Asia.

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Re: Europeans in Michigan

Postby uniface » Wed May 01, 2013 9:47 am

Gladly.

"Better" presupposes that there's an alternative one.

In my estimation, yours is unique.
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Re: Europeans in Michigan

Postby Minimalist » Wed May 01, 2013 10:13 am

http://www.ramtops.co.uk/copper.html

Popular literature contributes to the persistence of fantasy and mythology surrounding ancient copper mining in Michigan. This paper points out some of the major elements of mis-statement and myth revealed in current popular books, and suggests why they are fallacious, using current archaeological data about copper mining as counterpoint. Michigan's prehistoric mining data are unique in the world. Their discovery, description and explanation make an exciting story, one of which the citizens of this region can be rightfully proud and of which they should all be aware. Professional archaeologists need to build a public support base through accessible and competently written accounts of the facts about Michigan prehistory. Our efforts have improved in the past ten years, but our publications still lag behind those of non-specialist authors.
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Re: Europeans in Michigan

Postby uniface » Wed May 01, 2013 8:19 pm

Looks from your URL like outrage plus exclamation points (five in the span of eight sentences) plus selective omission of relevant information is the way "science" gets done on your end.

Not on mine :D
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Re: Europeans in Michigan

Postby Minimalist » Thu May 02, 2013 10:12 am

I understand where you are coming from.

"Men willingly believe what they wish." - Julius Caesar

What the number of exclamation points has to do with anything escapes me but it doesn't bother me at all that native americans were able to do a little copper mining without having to drag in the fucking Phoenicians! (There, I gave you an exclamation point to make you feel better.)
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: Europeans in Michigan

Postby E.P. Grondine » Thu May 02, 2013 5:59 pm

uniface wrote:Gladly.

"Better" presupposes that there's an alternative one.

In my estimation, yours is unique.


Thanks.

It is also necessary for me to point out that not only is my analysis my own work, it is the only one that accords with all of the data, and includes no "speculative" theorems that are unatested to by the data.
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
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Re: Europeans in Michigan

Postby uniface » Sat May 11, 2013 7:33 am

Excerpts :

The Bronze Age of Scandinavia (1750-500 BC) is characterized by the sudden appearance of bronze objects in Scandinavia, the sudden mass appearance of amber in Mycenaean graves, and the beginning of bedrock carvings of huge ships. We take this to indicate that people from the east Mediterranean arrived to Sweden on big ships over the Atlantic, carrying bronze objects from the south, which they traded for amber occurring in SE Sweden in the Ravlunda-Vitemölla–Kivik area.

It turns out that all examined Swedish subject except one - a slaggbit - comes from mines and ore deposits from sites in Cyprus, Sardinia, the Iberian Peninsula, the Massif Central in the current France, Tyrol and the British Isles. Copper has been transported, and in return it has been shipped back large amounts of amber. What emerges is a picture of a time when international contacts over large water was obvious, and there are already some 2000 years before the Vikings set off on their journeys.

The aim of this study is to further the discussion as to whether copper was extracted locally or imported to Sweden during the Bronze Age or if both of these practices could have coexisted. For this purpose, we have carried out lead isotope and chemical analyses of 33 bronze items, dated between 1600BC and 700BC. Among these are the famous Fröslunda shields and the large scrap hoard from Bräckan and other items from three regions in southern Sweden which are also renowned for their richness in copper ores. It is obvious from a comparison that the element and lead isotope compositions of the studied bronze items diverge greatly from those of spatially associated copper ores. Nor is there any good resemblance with other ores from Scandinavia, and it is concluded that the copper in these items must have been imported from elsewhere. The results furthermore indicate that there are variations in metal supply that are related to chronology, in agreement with other artefacts from Scandinavia as well as from other parts of Europe. Altogether these circumstances open up for a discussion regarding Scandinavia’s role in the maritime networks during the Bronze Age.

http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/ ... navia.html
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Re: Europeans in Michigan

Postby Minimalist » Sat May 11, 2013 10:10 am

We take this to indicate that people from the east Mediterranean arrived to Sweden on big ships over the Atlantic, carrying bronze objects from the south, which they traded for amber occurring in SE Sweden in the Ravlunda-Vitemölla–Kivik area.



Why? As a matter of fact small trading ships going up and down the rivers of Europe makes a great deal more sense. Why do people always eliminate the middle-man in commerce? It's the Columbus model.....which didn't work. "I'm sailing to China to trade so we don't have to rely on Venetian and Arab middle-men!"
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: Europeans in Michigan

Postby kbs2244 » Sat May 11, 2013 1:03 pm

There is a theory that the Scandinavians were the middle men in the copper trade.
Because of their foggy North Atlantic sailing ability they were able to get to MI via the St Lawrence and the Great Lakes to obtain the copper.

But due to their lack of knowledge about alloying it, they had to pass it on and then buy back the resulting bronze.
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Re: Europeans in Michigan

Postby Minimalist » Sun May 12, 2013 3:06 pm

I can't help but notice that your commerce is decidedly one-directional. European artifacts...assuming that all of them are "legitimate" for the moment show up in the new world but there is no corresponding report of native-american artifacts in the old world. I find it entirely possible that old world ships could have been disabled by a storm and blown across the Atlantic to be scavenged by curious native-Americans. But they never seemed to blow "back."

Further,

http://www.badarchaeology.com/?page_id=418

There are several things worth noting. The ‘text’ has only eight symbols, which is hardly enough to be confident about ascribing it to any particular writing system, least of all one from the other side of the Atlantic. Secondly, the two scholars who passed opinions on it were Semiticists, whose expertise is not in the Aegean script they claim to detect on the stone. Thirdly, Cyrus Gordon believed fervently in Bronze Age contacts between the eastern Mediterranean and North America, a variant of the ‘Lost Tribes of Israel’ theory, despite a complete lack of stratified archaeological evidence for such contacts. Whether the stone is a hoax or a misidentification of meaningless scratches (natural or deliberate) is unclear, but it is certainly not a Cretan Linear A inscription.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Re: Europeans in Michigan

Postby uniface » Sun May 12, 2013 3:55 pm

Cyrus Gordon believed fervently in Bronze Age contacts between the eastern Mediterranean and North America . . . despite a complete lack of stratified archaeological evidence for such contacts.


Ever notice how the Clovis Firsters kept raising the bar on "acceptance standards" for evidence that undermined their position ?

Same deal here. It's "deja vu all over again." :?
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Re: Europeans in Michigan

Postby Minimalist » Sun May 12, 2013 4:54 pm

Perhaps you can tell me what this has to do with Clovis?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Re: Europeans in Michigan

Postby uniface » Sun May 12, 2013 7:28 pm

In order for people to leave inscriptions, they have to be there to leave them.

This is pretty self-evident.

In order to have been there, it is not necessary for them to leave stratified habitation sites that can be found and excavated.

Insisting that this is so is exactly what the Clovisoids insisted was the case with pre-Clovis man in the New World.

What they were really saying was that, in order for the Clovisoids to BELIEVE that there were people here before Clovis, yada yada yada. But that's another matter. It's no longer who was here, but if they believed something.

They confused the two and treated both as if they were synonymous.

They were not.
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Re: Europeans in Michigan

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sun May 12, 2013 8:24 pm

I love the way that the proponents of these theories take what may be a few scattered artifacts at best and use them to construct imaginary European kingdoms in North America.
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
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Re: Europeans in Michigan

Postby kbs2244 » Mon May 13, 2013 10:27 am

It is not a case of setting up “kingdoms” or even permanent settlements.
It was a case of pure opportunistic mining of the equivalent of the third world.

Summertime on Lake Superior can be nice.
Winter is brutal.
And the copper would be under snow in frozen ground.

The result is 3, or 4 at the most, month camps.
Hide tents and brush huts.
Things that rot.
The only things that would be left behind when winter came would be heavy stone tools with no use back home.
These tools have been found in abundance.
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