Heh-heh...I love this conclusion

[Minimalist]

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111020145054.htm

First North American Hunters 1,000 Years Earlier Than Previously Thought, Speared Mastodon Fossil Shows

This new study concludes that the first-known hunters in North America can now be dated back at least 14,000 years.

"I am sure that especially the Native Americans are pleased with the results of the study. It is further proof that humans have been present in North America for longer than previously believed. The "Clovis First" theory, which many scientists swore to just a few years back, has finally been buried with the conclusions of this study," says Professor Eske Willerslev, director of the Centre for GeoGenetics at the Natural History Museum of Denmark, University of Copenhagen[/quote]


I wonder how long till the counterattack begins?

[kbs2244]

You keyed in on the Clovis aspect.
But I keyed in on the “Native American” aspect.

I doubt the current “Native Americans” will be pleased if the humans turn out to not have their typical Mongoloid skull but more European ones.
A La Kennewick Man.

[Minimalist]

"Pleased?"

They'll go nuts!

[Cognito]

I doubt the current “Native Americans” will be pleased if the humans turn out to not have their typical Mongoloid skull but more European ones.

Just another elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about since it is politically incorrect; however, every American arch understands that Native American skulls prior to about 8,000 years old are always dolichocephalic (long headed) as opposed to Mongoloid brachycephalic (short headed).

Another good example is Peñon Woman who is the oldest American skull dated so far at about 12,750bp I believe. And yes, she is dolichocephalic.

[Digit]

Do NA have legends of meeting an earlier people at all?

Roy.

[Minimalist]

E.P. has a pretty good understanding of native American legend. Perhaps he knows.

[Cognito]

E.P. has a pretty good understanding of native American legend. Perhaps he knows.

Drumroll .... E.P. you're on ....

[E.P. Grondine]

As none of you here understand the First Peoples views on this, my 1/8 Shawnee self will have to represent and try to provide you with some kind of direction to those who do.

First off, the First Peoples remembered other First Peoples, and they remembered later European visitors. They have no problem with First Peoples arriving from anywhere.

But in point of fact aside from X mt DNA, who were relatively late arrivals (8,350 BCE) , it still appears there were no early arrivals from Europe.

In my opinion, I don't think the memories earlier giant peoples in the fossil "myths" can be relied on. But that's just my opinion - for these see Adriane Major's book. (sorry uniface, but that's as much hope as I can offer you.) But then I have been wrong before, and retain the right to be wrong both now and in the future.

Generally nearly all Native Americans believe that the disturbance of a person's remains recalls their spirit from its passing, and it remains disturbed until their remains are properly re-interred.

The views as to what is proper from that point on differ from nation to nation, and from individual to individual.

The Grande Ronde is a confederation of the survivors of 31 nations. That confederation has cultural preservation officers. I won't try to speak for any of them; that is not my place.

I am relatively sure who the descendants of the Kennewick man are today, but won't go into that quite yet here now.

My own current opinion on this matter is limited solely to Shawnee remains and artifacts, but as it is not my place to make those decisions, my opinion does not matter in terms of what is done today. I set out my earlier opinion in my book, and it still holds; I have given this matter much more thought since then, but will not discuss my current thinking on this with you here, but only privately with Shawnee and my fellow Shawnee descendants, and others who have a right to ask.

I am not a spiritual guide, but rely on others for that; that said, I hope I have pointed you in the proper direction.

Oh yes - I would like to add that in general eastern North American archaeologists hate my book, because it immediately raises all sorts of NAGPRA problems for nearly all of them. But as the facts will not go away, they are going to have to figure out how they will face them, and what they are going to do in the future.

[kbs2244]

Isn’t there a well published story of an oral tradition of a “Final Stand” battle at the Falls of the Ohio where a confederation of the current tribes of the Ohio/Kentucky area wiped out the previous inhabits of the area?

[E.P. Grondine]

Isn’t there a well published story of an oral tradition of a “Final Stand” battle at the Falls of the Ohio where a confederation of the current tribes of the Ohio/Kentucky area wiped out the previous inhabits of the area?

Hi kb -

It's well published, okay, but the form it was passed on in was by Harrison and his fellow land thieves. The translations and versions they gave are very very suspect, to put it mildly.

What they used for their effort were most likely traditions of the revolt against the Andaste, which the thieves manipulated into a form which they could use.

No one has actually researched their papers to try to find the materials they started off with to create their "history".

Just send along a couple hundred thousand dollars, and I'll put it on my to do list.

[Barracuda]

I have heard stories about the "ancient ones" from tribal Piutes in the Eastern Sierra Nevadas.

but that was while sitting in a hot spring out in the desert....Yes, alcohol and marijuana were both involved

[E.P. Grondine]

I have heard stories about the "ancient ones" from tribal Piutes in the Eastern Sierra Nevadas.

but that was while sitting in a hot spring out in the desert....Yes, alcohol and marijuana were both involved

Sounds like a really fun evening.... and whatever memories that may stayed with you would be fun to hear as well.

But 'cuda, please remember that not all of the First Peoples had the same "ancient ones", if they had any memory of any earlier "ancient ones" at all.

[circumspice]

Do NA have legends of meeting an earlier people at all?

Roy.

The Pueblo group of Amerinds have legends that mention the Anasazi which, depending upon who translates it, means either Ancient Enemy or Ancestral Enemy...

[Digit]

Yes, alcohol and marijuana were both involved

Yep! Gives a lovely perfume to the bath water!

Roy.

[uniface]

I don't think the memories earlier giant peoples in the fossil "myths" can be relied on. But that's just my opinion - for these see Adriane Major's book. (sorry uniface, but that's as much hope as I can offer you.)

I'm not sure if you're referencing the memory of having fought their way into Eastern North America against the Allegwi giants, or to the giants themselves.

If the latter, there are more than enough separate, independent accounts of their skeletons on record to satisfy anyone, spanning 100 years.

If the former (Susquehannock account), mining "fossil myths" is what you've been doing for years, E.P., in depth and in detail, and still are doing.

(?)