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Postby Ishtar » Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:27 am

Digit wrote: Parts have been added, other parts have been removed, some have been modified.
A child who watched stage one being constructed would not have lived to see stage two.


A bit like the Bible!
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Postby Digit » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:36 am

In view of your interests Ish a couple of theories might be of interest to you.
Inside the circle of stones has been found a circle of post holes. The original suggestion was that this suggested that the earliest structure was a 'Woodhenge'.
But as with everything about SH another theory has arisen. The local houses would have been of the 'round house' form and they were apparently constructed of an outer circular wall with a circle of posts near the centre, which then the supported a thatched roof.
This feature is exactly copied, in stone, at SH. So was SH roofed?
As I posted earlier, the rising sun, it is suggested, would have bathed the interior with a warm reddish orange glow.
Further tests, with audio equipment, has raised the idea that sound would have also been reflected and re-reflected from the stones.
A drum, for example, beaten at the correct repetative rate, would have matched and reinforced the reflected sound to amplify it far above what the drum could produce.
The sub-sonic harmonics could have been felt by those people within the circle, and if the interior was smokey, hence a roof? because of the smoke, actually have been visible!
IF all of that is correct it would have been a totally overwhelming experience for those within the circle and a demonstration of power without equal.
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Postby Ishtar » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:48 am

Digit wrote:A drum, for example, beaten at the correct repetative rate, would have matched and reinforced the reflected sound to amplify it far above what the drum could produce.
The sub-sonic harmonics could have been felt by those people within the circle, and if the interior was smokey, hence a roof? because of the smoke, actually have been visible!
IF all of that is correct it would have been a totally overwhelming experience for those within the circle and a demonstration of power without equal.


Ah! Digit, you probably realise it ...but you've just strayed into Boats, Hematite, Television territory!

The most common method the shaman used in ancient times, and still uses, to go into a trance is the drumbeat.

Scientists have studied this and they confirm that a drum beaten at the 'correct repetitive rate' as you say, sends the shaman into what they call the 'theta state'. Shamans call it an ecstatic, out-of-body state that takes them into other dimensions, and that's my experience of it too.

Btw, the correct repetitive rate is between 4 and 7 beats per second.
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Postby Digit » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:54 am

The whole idea might be completely wrong Ish, but it gives by far the best explanation for the construction that I've met so far.
As I said, it could be wrong, but it fits.
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Postby Ishtar » Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:10 pm

Well, once you're into this part of history, you have to rely, to some extent, on intuition and flashes of inspiration.
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The study of Stonehenge

Postby CShark » Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:16 pm

Digit, you obviously know a great deal about SH. Would you be so kind as to list a few of the books and/or sites you use to study the monument ?

Thanks
Bob
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Postby Digit » Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:25 pm

And maths Ish.
The speed of sound at sea level is approximately 745mph.
The diam of the outer ring at SH is 100ft.
A drummer in the centre would be 50ft from each side, so if my calculations are correct, the sound from a drum would take .05 of a sec to come back to the drummer and .1 of a sec to reach a stone behind him then another .05 of a sec to reflect back to the drummer.
So sub multples of that, plus reflections from the other stones should I belive result in a sound that rose and fell as long as the drumming continued.
This is unlikely, discounting alien visitation, to be something that stone age man calculated. Most probably the knowledge would have come via caves, (the roofed in structure?) and also would account for the various rebuilds that took place at SH.
All this could be wrong I emphasize again, even some of the holes may be mistakes, you're digging it here, I wanted it there, you're digging it round and I wanted it square!.
With apologies to Bernard Cribbins.
So on those calculations, if I haven't boobed Ish, 5 a second would be ideal!
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Postby Digit » Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:37 pm

I had a clearout of books some time ago Shark, small house, but all that I have quoted can be found via the internet. Some of the sources are only amongst the records of learned societies and need quite a bit of chasing down.
Much of what I've posted is done so from memory I'm afraid.
The papers from such as the British Academy are wonderful in that, starting with some of the early ones, you can follow the development of a theory and the sometimes heated debates that follow.
The British Archaeology mag is a good source as well and copies of back issues are downloadable.
BBC Wales and the Pembrokeshire Arch Soc are also big on the subject.
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Postby Digit » Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:17 pm

Shark and Ish.
Just to prove I'm not aboard a hobby horse etc, found this.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2003/ ... ogy.farout
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Postby kbs2244 » Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:19 pm

Digit;
It seems sound has a big influence in the design of these big old piles of stone.
Two places to get started are:

Acoustics a Silbury Hill

http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/serv ... s00600a005

A forum devoted to the acoustics of Properties Of Dolmen Megalithic Chambers, Sound and Megaliths

http://www.stonepages.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=710
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Postby Digit » Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:39 pm

We have to avoid our feelings ronning away with us KB but the acoustic theories open up a completely new understanding of what might be the reason behind SH
But despite my warning of feelings, I can only imagine that the affect on people within a massive stone circle, with ears assailed by a wavering drum beat that they can also feel deep within themselves, and see as well, and all lit by a firey glow, must have been over powering and would fully justify the effort that went into is construction.
No modern church would compare.
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Postby Ishtar » Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:56 am

Digit wrote:No modern church would compare.


Agreed, but even they were designed with acoustics in mind.

I used to sing in a choir and sometimes we would get to sing in the local 11th century St Nicholas Church and the sound would be heavenly. But other times we had to sing at the local theatre, and the sound would fall as flat as a pancake! :lol:

But seriously, given how important sound and the drumbeat are to shamanic practises, I think your theory here is an absolute winner!
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Postby CShark » Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:30 am

Digit wrote:I had a clearout of books some time ago Shark, small house, but all that I have quoted can be found via the internet. Some of the sources are only amongst the records of learned societies and need quite a bit of chasing down.
Much of what I've posted is done so from memory I'm afraid.
The papers from such as the British Academy are wonderful in that, starting with some of the early ones, you can follow the development of a theory and the sometimes heated debates that follow.
The British Archaeology mag is a good source as well and copies of back issues are downloadable.
BBC Wales and the Pembrokeshire Arch Soc are also big on the subject.


Ok, thanks for the reply. As I believe I mentioned, I have a few books on SH, but always looking for different interpretations/theories.

As for the acoustic properties of SH, there was a television program on SH that had a sound specialist set up speakers of pink noise, then he walked around the inner stones and recorded. The results were fairly impressive, and 'proved' that indeed there is an aural property that most people miss when studying the site. I can imagine shamans using this as an added bonus to impressing the devout; along with the visuals, the sounds would have been borderline terrifying!

Whether or not it was built with this in mind is a completly different issue. Personally, I doubt that the builders had much knowledge of acoustics; the effect was likely serendipitous.

Bob
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Postby Digit » Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:36 am

Quite possibly Bob, but, again, like everything else about SH, possibly not.
If you carried out Shaministic ceremonies in a cave, then likely a fire would be used for illumination as well as effect, the rest could follow.
Granted that the reasons would not be understood. For example, if the drum beat reached the corrected repetition rate to send the Shaman into his entrance state and the dimensions of the cave were anything like ideal, the standing wave and wavering echoes would occur.
I'll guess here that the standing wave would be interpreted as a spirit entering or the Shaman's spirit leaving.
SH has been developed in the same manner as Salisbury Cathedral has, which could indicate attempts to deliberately create the effect they desired.
Take a look at the inner stone 'horse shoe' and see if you note anything of interest.
I won't say more as I would like to hear your ideas.
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Ritual use in SH's centre

Postby CShark » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:17 am

Digit wrote:Quite possibly Bob, but, again, like everything else about SH, possibly not.
If Take a look at the inner stone 'horse shoe' and see if you note anything of interest.
I won't say more as I would like to hear your ideas.



The inner stone horse shoe would perhaps act as an amphitheatre does, or a parabolic dish, concentrating the sound at a specific point, then projecting it outwards. The effect would be quite impressive I imagine, if you were walking around the outside of SH, looking in. You'd see flickering fire, and hear snippets of sound being amplified and distorted by the stones. I wonder if the sarsens themselves were carved to enhance this ? I believe only the inside faces were worked (is this correct ?) and if so, would it have been for a visual enhancement, or aural as well ? Makes you wonder, doesn't it !

I tend to think the original construction did not take these effects into consideration. Then again, if the 'architects' had spent time in caverns or caves, perhaps they DID build the thing with the two effects in mind. That is, if SH was used for such rituals in the first place. Is there any evidence of this ?
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