Egyptian Glyphs in Australia???

All points south!

Moderators: Minimalist, MichelleH

Re: Egyptian Glyphs in Australia???

Postby jw1815 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:39 am

From a website called ozemail, I found that Paul White’s 1996 article at Crystalinks was an extract from an Australian publication called Exposure Magazine then, but now called Hard Evidence.

The ozemail site had attached a link to White's article before learning that it was considered a hoax. So the ozemail webmaster contacted Australian Egyptologist, Dr. Gregory Gilbert, for his views on it, then posted their e-mail correspondence here:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~classblu ... ilbert.htm

Dr. Gilbert’s evaluation states that, contrary to claims in the article by Paul White, most Egyptologists do study Early Dynastic hieroglyphics, after first learning Classical Hieroglyphics from the Middle Kingdom period.

Dr. Gilbert mentions an error where White says the hieroglyphs date to the 3rd Dynasty through the names of Khufu and his son, Ra-Jedef. But Khufu was the second king of the 4th (not 3rd) Dynasty. According to Gilbert, one of the titles given to Khufu in the Australian rock carvings wasn’t used in Egypt until the 5th Dynasty, some centuries later than the 4th Dynasty period of Khufu, and even later than the 3rd Dynasty period that White claimed for the carvings. Dr.Gilbert also says that the carvings appear to have been copied from a modern magazine on Egyptian hieroglyphics by a person not familiar with the language, in random order, and containing errors of positioning that make them little more than incorrectly written names and gibberish. Regarding the claim that they were translated by Professor Johnson, Gilbert says that, at best, Johnson must have been misquoted in the article. (Or, IMO, Johnson never translated the glyphs, probably never saw them, and the translated narrative is fictitious.)
Last edited by jw1815 on Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:56 am, edited 5 times in total.
jw1815
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:23 am

Re: Egyptian Glyphs in Australia???

Postby jw1815 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:52 am

Another website, Don’s Maps, says that the Australian magazine, Archaeological Diggings, called the carvings a complete hoax. The magazine’s editor visited the site, which is located in a park, and talked with park employees. Their account contradicts the claims in Paul White’s article that local residents have known about the carvings for 100 years.

http://donsmaps.com/hoax.html

The following text and images are adapted from an excellent Australian magazine on the middle east called Archaeological Diggings which is published every two months by David Down, PO Box 341 Hornsby NSW Australia. You can find the website at http://www.diggingsonline.com


Excerpts from the Archaeological Diggings article that calls the carvings a hoax:

In response to the many requests that regularly come to Archaeological Diggings, I decided for once and for all to check the claims made for the so-called "Gosford Glyphs" located near Kariong, about 60 km north of Sydney…. The area around Lyre Trig is famous for numerous Aboriginal carvings…..The Aboriginal carvings….have been well researched and their positions noted long before the discovery of the so-called Egyptian hieroglyphs….

Alan Dash, a surveyor with the Gosford City Council between 1968 and 1993, first noticed the carvings about 1975. Thoroughly familiar with the area, he revisited the site several times over the next 5 years, each time observing that more and more carvings appeared on the rock face. He considered the engravings the work of an irresponsible vandal.

Neil Martin himself [Park Ranger] found the man responsible. "In 1984 I was in the area helping to put out a fire", he told me. "As I came around the base of the hill, I could hear a noise like someone chipping stone. I walked over to the cleft and found an old Yugoslavian man, chipping the stone with a Sidchrome cold chisel. Because this was national park property, I confiscated the chisel and the man left. Because he was mentally handicapped, we took no further action, but I later gave the chisel to the local historical society. We never saw the old man again."….

Much has been made of the supposed "age" of the inscription, suggested by the green lichen covering many of the hieroglyphs. Neil pointed out that lichen grows very quickly in the damp cleft….

Some of the Egyptoid carvings at Kariong appear to be smooth, giving them the false appearance of age. This is due to weathering in the sandstone rock, but differences in mineral content of even the same slab of sandstone will produce different degrees of weathering. However, most of the Egyptoid carvings still show crisp, sharp edges indicating recent cutting….

Mr David Lambert is an expert in rock art and in 2001 was the Rock Art Conservator of the Cultural Heritage Division of the NPWS. In 1983 he visited the site and saw the engravings freshly cut into the rock. The inside of each carving consisted of clean white sandstone with no evidence of organic or surface lichen growth, indicating the carvings were less than 12 months old. Pictures taken in 1983/1984 by the NPWS show the fresh cut rock and the spalling around the edges of the engravings indicating very recent carving. By contrast, the many genuine Aboriginal carvings in the area are much more rounded and smooth. Most of the Aboriginal carvings in this area have been dated to between 200 and 250 years old…

New carvings are being added to the site from time to time. Even on the day of my visit, Neil pointed out several new glyphs carved since his last visit, and indeed, the scratches in the rock were made into clean, white sandstone….

There are many other mistakes in the inscription. Some hieroglyphs are drawn incorrectly or face the wrong way, while at least one title, "Son of Re," was not used until well after the time of Khufu. Other hieroglyphs represent names from different periods of Egyptian history, separated by hundreds of years, which further indicates the inscription is a modern graffiti rather than an authentic ancient artifact.

….The discovery of Tutankhamen's tomb, in particular, sparked a round of movies, novels and memorabilia in the 1920s and 30s. Indeed, the "Tutmania" continues unabated today….Another example is the carving of the sphinx alongside a miniature pyramid made by Private Shirley in the national park near the road from Turramurra to Bobbin Head, in the northern suburbs of Sydney….
jw1815
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:23 am

Re: Egyptian Glyphs in Australia???

Postby kbs2244 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:17 am

Oh well….
It was fun to speculate about.

I guess we have the Egyptians as far as India, but not further east?
kbs2244
 
Posts: 2346
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:47 pm

Re: Egyptian Glyphs in Australia???

Postby Rokcet Scientist » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:41 am

jw1815 wrote:
….The discovery of Tutankhamen's tomb, in particular, sparked a round of movies, novels and memorabilia in the 1920s and 30s. Indeed, the "Tutmania" continues unabated today….Another example is the carving of the sphinx alongside a miniature pyramid made by Private Shirley in the national park near the road from Turramurra to Bobbin Head, in the northern suburbs of Sydney….



Or in Las Vegas:

Image
Rokcet Scientist
 

Re: Egyptian Glyphs in Australia???

Postby jw1815 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:10 pm

Heh, heh - Good one, RS.
jw1815
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:23 am

Re: Egyptian Glyphs in Australia???

Postby jw1815 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:38 pm

It was fun to speculate about.


Maybe too much fun? Or, rather, too easy to be true. I guess evidence doesn't usually come in a neat package wrapped up with a message chiseled in stone to explain it all. Looks like it's not the grafiti artists who were perpetrating the hoax, but the writer who made up the translation and went so far as to name a real Egyptologist as the source.

Real messages of stranded or escaped people, like the "Croatoan" carving at Roanoke, don't often have neatly wrapped up, obvious answers. This Egyptian one is in the same pattern as the lost Vikings "message" of the Kensington Rune Stone, which I also think is a hoax.

But, we can still speculate on whether an Egyptian ship might have sailed or drifted to Australia. :D All we need is, um, imagination?

I guess we have the Egyptians as far as India, but not further east?


Dunno. They certainly got around.
jw1815
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:23 am

Re: Egyptian Glyphs in Australia???

Postby Rokcet Scientist » Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:18 am

jw1815 wrote:
I guess we have the Egyptians as far as India, but not further east?

Dunno. They certainly got around.


Somebody did. Literally! Somebody did circumnavigations of the globe in those days! And probably many more than just someone! How else could the Egyptian upperclass have become addicted to heroin, cannabis, cocaïne, and tobacco if they didn't have a regular supply? There was a global drugs trade then too. In our history lessons under the less embarrassing moniker of "the spice trade". It's also how western European colonist countries got filthily rich in the 17th and 18th centuries.

Drugs started global trade.
Rokcet Scientist
 

Re: Egyptian Glyphs in Australia???

Postby jw1815 » Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:05 am

RS'

I had a response composed and ready for posting, but, once again, as a few other times, found that when I clicked on the submit button, the entire thing was lost because my loggin had expired.

No time at present to redo it, but maybe later tonight - after first composing it on Word and then copying it into a post.

Most infuriating problem!
jw1815
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:23 am

Re: Egyptian Glyphs in Australia???

Postby Minimalist » Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:41 am

Why is your log in expiring?

I've been logged in for months.

Hey Boss? Is there a timer?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Minimalist
 
Posts: 15489
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Egyptian Glyphs in Australia???

Postby MichelleH » Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:55 pm

Rokcet,

If you do not check the Log me in automatically box when you login, the board will only keep you logged in for a preset time. This prevents misuse of your account by anyone else. To stay logged in, check the box during login.

M
We've Got Fossils - We win ~ Lewis Black

Red meat, cheese, tobacco, and liquor...it works for me ~ Anthony Bourdain

Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
User avatar
MichelleH
 
Posts: 837
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 6:38 pm
Location: Southern California & Arizona

Re: Egyptian Glyphs in Australia???

Postby Rokcet Scientist » Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:41 pm

MichelleH wrote:Rokcet,

If you do not check the Log me in automatically box when you login, the board will only keep you logged in for a preset time. This prevents misuse of your account by anyone else. To stay logged in, check the box during login.

M


Thanks, Michelle, but it wasn't me that had the login problems. That was jw1815.
Rokcet Scientist
 

Re: Egyptian Glyphs in Australia???

Postby Minimalist » Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:58 pm

Close enough, man....close enough!
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Minimalist
 
Posts: 15489
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Egyptian Glyphs in Australia???

Postby jw1815 » Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:42 am

I don't know why the log-in expiration occurs. Might be a problem on my end. If I log in and just read, there's no problem at all. But once I start composing a message, if I take the time to answer a phone call, get a snack, or do a search to confirm my memory on something I'm posting, then finish composing and click submit, I get a prompt to log in, although I've already done it. Once I got a message that said "log-in expired." I'll try checking the box to stay logged in between visits and see if it makes a difference.
Last edited by jw1815 on Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
jw1815
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:23 am

Re: Egyptian Glyphs in Australia???

Postby jw1815 » Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:48 am

Somebody did circumnavigations of the globe in those days! And probably many more than just someone!


Why do you think that circumnavigation was necessary? Ideas and material items can spread widely without it.

Picture a long line of chairs placed next to each other and people seated in them. The person at one end explains an idea to the one next to him, and each in turn passes it down the line. It’s not a simple word or phrase, but a concept which requires a little explanation each time. Meanwhile, the person at the opposite end hands an object to the person next to him, who looks it over, bends it, and passes it on to the next one, who straightens it again, but not quite the way it was originally, then passes it on down the line. When the object reaches the last person on the opposite end, it resembles its original appearance, but with alterations made several times by the different people who handled it. Then the last person at the opposite end states out loud the idea that was passed along. It sounds a bit similar to the original, but with some concepts added, some dropped from it, and some parts of the idea restated with a different meaning. A few creative types along the way have intermixed the object and the idea, some adapting the idea to fit the object, others modifying the object to fit the idea. Neither person at the extreme ends has passed the idea or object directly to the other end, but indirectly, through intermediaries.

Adjacent geographical regions can pass concepts and material objects in the same way, without the more distant regions ever being in direct contact or even knowing about each other. Occasionally, adventurous travelers do reach distant regions. The more specifically similar the objects and ideas of distant regions, the more likely they had direct contact without intermediaries to make modifications.
jw1815
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:23 am

Re: Egyptian Glyphs in Australia???

Postby jw1815 » Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:07 am

How else could the Egyptian upperclass have become addicted to heroin, cannabis, cocaïne, and tobacco if they didn't have a regular supply?


Ancient Egyptians didn’t have to go far for heroin. Opium poppies are indigenous to the region. Several Near East societies also had opiates, e.g. the Sumerian, Assyrian, and Persian Empires, later the Greeks and Romans. It was a pain killer for seriously ill or injured people, and for surgery. Like today, some probably used it outside of medical reasons. Then, like now, it was addictive.

Cannabis is indigenous to central and eastern Asia, easily passed along through trade routes. No need for distant travel by Egyptians themselves to obtain it.

The cocaine and tobacco chemicals in Egyptian mummies are the only drugs that were indigenous to lands far distant from Egypt. Despite numerous suggestions of how it happened, I think there are still too many unanswered questions and not enough information yet to draw reliable conclusions. External contamination seems to be ruled out because of hair sample results. Some explanations suggest chemical degradation of substances from chemically similar plants after death. Another suggestion is indirect trade, across Pacific islands or coastal regions, one society passing them on to another until they reached places and people who never met or heard of the distant source. The obvious conclusion drawn by many people is that ancient Egyptians and ancient Americans had direct contact with each other.

Some of the questions: If Egyptians had coca and tobacco products, where are the residues outside of the mummies? Processing of the plants for consumption would leave detectable residues at archaeological sites. Even if already processed when they got it, storage containers would have residues. That would be one area of research to do.

Wouldn’t it have been easier and cheaper to grow the plants locally than to trade for them, once discovered? Coca might require more humid conditions, but tobacco is hardy. Native Americans grew it in the subtropical regions of the present southeastern US and as far north as modern Connecticut and southern Canada. There should be evidence of their growth in Egyptian pictures and the plants should have continued to exist in the wild there, even if the original cultivators stopped growing them sometime in history. Incidentally, Native Americans used tobacco more sparingly than modern people, for social and religious occasions. They used sarsaparilla bark as a treatment for addiction to it.

If Egyptians had cocaine and tobacco, I’d expect other cultures in the region to have had them, too, just as they had heroin and cannabis – another area for research.
jw1815
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:23 am

PreviousNext

Return to Australia & Oceania, Antarctica

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest