The Golden Age

The study of religious or heroic legends and tales. One constant rule of mythology is that whatever happens amongst the gods or other mythical beings was in one sense or another a reflection of events on earth. Recorded myths and legends, perhaps preserved in literature or folklore, have an immediate interest to archaeology in trying to unravel the nature and meaning of ancient events and traditions.

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Postby Forum Monk » Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:51 pm

Ishtar,
Can you point to me some Hindu flood mythology? Please bear in mind, in some cases the cosmologies are in fact born out of the flood episode in my opinion. I think this because, many of the cosmologies pickup where the flood left off with a world being born from water and usually a male and female deity presiding over the creation/recreation of things.

Strangely, very many cosmologies begin with water. The water rarely comes later, rather the earth does. Science tells us there was no global flood, yet a large number of the world's cultures have maintained a "golden age" and flood myth. While floods were commonplace in many locales, it seems in each culture there was the "one great flood". I think they have a common origin, perhaps extending back to one of the HSS bottlenecks, which nearly wiped out our species.
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Postby Minimalist » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:26 pm

Ishtar wrote:Min

I'm intrigued to see that you can post into our messages (see my post of Wednesday in this thread, 8.04 am, where I ask you about the book.)

I didn't realise you had such powers, even though you are an Egyptian fertility god an' all! :lol:

So it's now occurred to me, maybe I should give you power of attorney over my input. That way, whenever I make a complete tit of myself in a post, you could go into it and correct it - and make me appear all sensible and logical! :lol:




It's less intriguing and more representative of the fact that sometimes I hit the "edit" button instead of "reply." Getting old is a bitch, you know.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Postby Ishtar » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:58 pm

In Hindu and Sumerian mythology, the flood comes after humanity already exists on the earth, and I'll go into that in a moment.

The Hindu creation story is remarkably similar to both the Sumerian one and the Norse one in that a gigantic being is dismembered and various parts of its body make up all elements of the creation.

In Hindu mythology, the giant is Purusha. In Sumerian, it's the whale Tiamat and in Norse mythology it's the ice giant, Ymir.

As these are the three oldest cosmologies, I would say that you're right about water being a strong feature (with the first two: Sumerian (whale) and Norse (ice)) but not about the flood, which comes after man already exists.

Rig veda - Hymn to Purusha


A THOUSAND heads hath Puruṣa, a thousand eyes, a thousand feet.
On every side pervading earth he fills a space ten fingers wide.

2 This Puruṣa is all that yet hath been and all that is to be;
The Lord of Immortality which waxes greater still by food.

3 So mighty is his greatness; yea, greater than this is Puruṣa.
All creatures are one-fourth of him, three-fourths eternal life in heaven.

4 With three-fourths Puruṣa went up: one-fourth of him again was here.
Thence he strode out to every side over what eats not and what eats.

5 From him Virāj was born; again Puruṣa from Virāj was born.
As soon as he was born he spread eastward and westward o’er the earth.

6 When Gods prepared the sacrifice with Puruṣa as their offering,
Its oil was spring, the holy gift was autumn; summer was the wood.

7 They balmed as victim on the grass Puruṣa born in earliest time.
With him the Deities and all Sādhyas and Ṛṣis sacrificed.

8 From that great general sacrifice the dripping fat was gathered up.
He formed the creatures of-the air, and animals both wild and tame.

9 From that great general sacrifice Ṛcas and Sāma-hymns were born:
Therefrom were spells and charms produced; the Yajus had its birth from it.

10 From it were horses born, from it all cattle with two rows of teeth:
From it were generated kine, from it the goats and sheep were born.

11 When they divided Puruṣa how many portions did they make?
What do they call his mouth, his arms? What do they call his thighs and feet?

12 The Brahman was his mouth, of both his arms was the Rājanya made.
His thighs became the Vaiśya, from his feet the Śūdra was produced.

13 The Moon was gendered from his mind, and from his eye the Sun had birth;

Indra and Agni from his mouth were born, and Vāyu from his breath.

14 Forth from his navel came mid-air the sky was fashioned from his head
Earth from his feet, and from his ear the regions. Thus they formed the worlds.

15 Seven fencing-sticks had he, thrice seven layers of fuel were prepared,
When the Gods, offering sacrifice, bound, as their victim, Puruṣa.

16 Gods, sacrificing, sacrificed the victim these were the earliest holy ordinances.

The Mighty Ones attained the height of heaven, there where the Sādhyas, Gods of old, are dwelling.


In another thread, we're talking about the horse sacrifice. It looks to me as if it stems from this one.
Last edited by Ishtar on Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:30 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Ishtar » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:05 pm

There is no flood myth in the Rig-veda, but there is one in the later Puranas (c. 1000 BC).

It is the story of Manu and Matysa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matsya

According to legend, the mantri to the king of pre-ancient Dravida, Satyavrata, who later becomes known as Manu, was washing his hands in a river when a little fish swam into his hands and begged him to save its life. He put it in a jar, which it soon outgrew; he successively moved it to a tank, a river and then the ocean. The fish then warned him that a deluge would occur in a week that would destroy all life. Manu therefore built a boat which the fish towed to a mountaintop when the flood came, and thus he survived along with some "seeds of life" to re-establish life on earth. This land or kingdom of Dravida that was ruled over by Satyavrata or Manu might have been an original, greater Dravida, that might have stretched from Madagascar and East Africa to Southernmost India and further to Southeast Asia and Australia.
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Postby john » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:44 pm

Ishtar wrote:There is no flood myth in the Rig-veda, but there is one in the later Puranas (c. 1000 BC).

It is the story of Manu and Matysa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matsya

According to legend, the mantri to the king of pre-ancient Dravida, Satyavrata, who later becomes known as Manu, was washing his hands in a river when a little fish swam into his hands and begged him to save its life. He put it in a jar, which it soon outgrew; he successively moved it to a tank, a river and then the ocean. The fish then warned him that a deluge would occur in a week that would destroy all life. Manu therefore built a boat which the fish towed to a mountaintop when the flood came,
and thus he survived along with some "seeds of life" to re-establish life on earth. This land or kingdom of Dravida that was ruled over by Satyavrata or Manu might have been an original, greater Dravida, that might have stretched from Madagascar and East Africa to Southernmost India and further to Southeast Asia and Australia.



Ishtar -

Read the first thirty-odd pages of

"The Book of the Hopi", by Frank Waters.

Then read the rest of the book.

Interesting, and relevant to flood

And rebirth ontology.



hoka hey

john
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Postby Ishtar » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:55 pm

Dearest John

Unlike your good self, Min and Rich et al who have retired early to sit around all day on your big, fat pensions - :D I have to work, and thus already have an enormous stack of books waiting to be read.

So why don't you give a synopsis here about what "The Book of the Hopi" says, pulling out the main points that are pertinent to this discussion, so that we don't have to wait until the year 2012 before having a discussion about it? I'd love to hear about it.

And while we're on the subject, it would be good if you could also do something like that when you post links. Speaking with my professional communicator hat on, people are much more likely to open a link if you can give them some idea of what they will find within. Otherwise, nine times out of 10, they don't bother.

Right, I'm off to work now!

Yours, time poor but rich in love! :lol:

Glenda
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Postby Ishtar » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:33 am

John, I had a Google around and found this. It sounds fascinating.

Waters says that the Hopi speak to us "out of immeasurable time, from a fathomless unconscious whose archetypes are mysterious and incomprehensible to us.

"What they tell us is the story of...their emergences from previous worlds….

"It is a world view of life...whose esoteric meaning they have kept inviolate for generations uncounted…..

"It is a mytho-religious system ... as complex, abstract, and esoteric as any in the world. It has been the despair of professional anthropologists, ethnologists, and sociologists….

"The esoteric meanings and functions of the ceremonies themselves have remained virtually unknown. This is not wholly due to Hopi secrecy. Professional scientific observers themselves have never granted validity to those aspects of Hopi ceremonialism that border the sixth-sense realm of mysticism. Indeed, the rationalism of all the western world vehemenently refutes anything that smacks of the unknown...

"That these Hopi have revealed their conceptual pattern of life to us now, for the first time, imparts to their gift a strangeness unique in our national experience... They reassert a rhythm of life we have disastrously tried to ignore. They remind us we must attune ourselves to the need for inner change if we are to avert a cataclysmic rupture between our own minds and hearts. …

"Nor will the Hopi view of the universe as an inseparably interrelated field or continuum be quite palatable to those who tacitly accept the role of man as a rational entity created to stand apart from nature…

“Work on the project required nearly three years. Much of this time I lived the reservation...with my research co-worker Oswald White Bear Fredericks...the discourses of our Hopi spokesmen were taken down in Hopi on a tape recorder by White Bear, who later translated them into English….

"All the Hopi spokesmen willingly and freely gave the information...none of them was paid informant fees in the manner customarily followed by professional researchers….

"This great cooperative effort could not have been obtained before, nor could it be obtained now; already some of the older spokesmen have died. Their traditions come to us by the dictate of fate we call fortuitous chance, at the time when we, as they, most need them…

"I must reiterate that this book is an expression by the Hopis of the traditional viewpoint. All the material in it, save my own obvious commentaries, was supplied by our Hopi spokesmen and approved as transcribed in manuscript form. Its aim as a free narrative was to achieve the full spirit and pattern of Hopi belief, unrestricted by detailed documentation and argumentative proof...

"The documentary scholar may question whether an ancient primitive people could have evolved such a rich belief and preserved its full tradition for generations by word of mouth. He may assert that the myths, legends, and ceremonies are largely my own speculations. He will certainly deny that invisible spirits manifest themselves as described. To these doubts and denials my only answer is that the book stems from a mythic and symbolic level far below the surface of anthropological and ethnological documentation. That it may not conform to the rational conceptualization ruling our own beliefs does not detract from its own validity as a depth psychology different from our own. It stands for itself as a synthesis of intuitive symbolic belief given utterance for the first time."


John, please tell us more, particularly about the Hopi flood/Golden Age ontology.
:) :) :) :D
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Postby john » Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:00 am

Ishtar wrote:John, I had a Google around and found this. It sounds fascinating.

Waters says that the Hopi speak to us "out of immeasurable time, from a fathomless unconscious whose archetypes are mysterious and incomprehensible to us.

"What they tell us is the story of...their emergences from previous worlds….

"It is a world view of life...whose esoteric meaning they have kept inviolate for generations uncounted…..

"It is a mytho-religious system ... as complex, abstract, and esoteric as any in the world. It has been the despair of professional anthropologists, ethnologists, and sociologists….

"The esoteric meanings and functions of the ceremonies themselves have remained virtually unknown. This is not wholly due to Hopi secrecy. Professional scientific observers themselves have never granted validity to those aspects of Hopi ceremonialism that border the sixth-sense realm of mysticism. Indeed, the rationalism of all the western world vehemenently refutes anything that smacks of the unknown...

"That these Hopi have revealed their conceptual pattern of life to us now, for the first time, imparts to their gift a strangeness unique in our national experience... They reassert a rhythm of life we have disastrously tried to ignore. They remind us we must attune ourselves to the need for inner change if we are to avert a cataclysmic rupture between our own minds and hearts. …

"Nor will the Hopi view of the universe as an inseparably interrelated field or continuum be quite palatable to those who tacitly accept the role of man as a rational entity created to stand apart from nature…

“Work on the project required nearly three years. Much of this time I lived the reservation...with my research co-worker Oswald White Bear Fredericks...the discourses of our Hopi spokesmen were taken down in Hopi on a tape recorder by White Bear, who later translated them into English….

"All the Hopi spokesmen willingly and freely gave the information...none of them was paid informant fees in the manner customarily followed by professional researchers….

"This great cooperative effort could not have been obtained before, nor could it be obtained now; already some of the older spokesmen have died. Their traditions come to us by the dictate of fate we call fortuitous chance, at the time when we, as they, most need them…

"I must reiterate that this book is an expression by the Hopis of the traditional viewpoint. All the material in it, save my own obvious commentaries, was supplied by our Hopi spokesmen and approved as transcribed in manuscript form. Its aim as a free narrative was to achieve the full spirit and pattern of Hopi belief, unrestricted by detailed documentation and argumentative proof...

"The documentary scholar may question whether an ancient primitive people could have evolved such a rich belief and preserved its full tradition for generations by word of mouth. He may assert that the myths, legends, and ceremonies are largely my own speculations. He will certainly deny that invisible spirits manifest themselves as described. To these doubts and denials my only answer is that the book stems from a mythic and symbolic level far below the surface of anthropological and ethnological documentation. That it may not conform to the rational conceptualization ruling our own beliefs does not detract from its own validity as a depth psychology different from our own. It stands for itself as a synthesis of intuitive symbolic belief given utterance for the first time."


John, please tell us more, particularly about the Hopi flood/Golden Age ontology.
:) :) :) :D



Ishtar -

working on it...........


john
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Postby john » Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:31 am

Ishtar wrote:Dearest John

Unlike your good self, Min and Rich et al who have retired early to sit around all day on your big, fat pensions - :D I have to work, and thus already have an enormous stack of books waiting to be read.

So why don't you give a synopsis here about what "The Book of the Hopi" says, pulling out the main points that are pertinent to this discussion, so that we don't have to wait until the year 2012 before having a discussion about it? I'd love to hear about it.

And while we're on the subject, it would be good if you could also do something like that when you post links. Speaking with my professional communicator hat on, people are much more likely to open a link if you can give them some idea of what they will find within. Otherwise, nine times out of 10, they don't bother.

Right, I'm off to work now!

Yours, time poor but rich in love! :lol:

Glenda


Ishtar -

Bingo.


The first thirty pages.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/2911/hopi3.html

Tremendous amount of crosslinkage here,

Not the least of which is that the Hopis knew

The Chakras.

Interesting, yes?

Also note that, in my opinion,

The descriptions of the beginning and ending of

The first three worlds are oral tradition at its best,

Preserving the account of actual, physical events.

The first world, of course,

Being the golden age.

Side note here regarding oral tradition -

The Mazama Indians of Southern Oregon recorded

In their oral tradition the volcanic eruption which

Created Crater Lake.

That eruption happened ten or eleven thousand years ago.....

"Seek and ye shall find."


hoka hey


john


final edit - Mt. Mazama eruption a little later than I quoted above.

Nonetheless, I still make my point.

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/usa/crater-lake.htm


j
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Postby Forum Monk » Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:24 pm

john wrote:Preserving the account of actual, physical events.
The first world, of course,
Being the golden age.


Interesting. Reading between the lines, there was the first world, fire, the second world, then ice, third world then flood. The first world seems to predate the ice age perhaps?
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Postby john » Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:02 pm

Forum Monk wrote:
john wrote:Preserving the account of actual, physical events.
The first world, of course,
Being the golden age.


Interesting. Reading between the lines, there was the first world, fire, the second world, then ice, third world then flood. The first world seems to predate the ice age perhaps?



Forum Monk -

Welll now..........

Its time to bell the cat.

In my opinion, there is no

Argument which can unequivocally demonstrate

That unbroken oral tradition cannot extend

Anywhere from 40k to 250k in the past.

Anyone care to take a shot at this one?

Hint: Oral Tradition and the use of Hematite are joined hip-and-thigh.


hoka hey


john
"Man is a marvellous curiosity. When he is at his very, very best he is sort of a low-grade nickel-plated angel; at his worst he is unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a sarcasm."

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Postby Forum Monk » Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:06 pm

Indian and Creation Myths - taken from http://www.indianlegend.com/default.htm

Some I have not included because their myths seem to begin much later, corresponding to a time of migration.

Yokut Indians Creation Myth

A Great Flood had occurred upon Earth long, long ago. While Earth was still covered with water, there were no living creatures upon the land.
Then out of the sky one day glided an enormous Eagle with a black Crow riding upon its back, searching for a place to light.
Around and around Eagle flew until he discovered a projecting tree stump, or what appeared to be a stump, upon which he landed to rest. There was a home at last upon the flat surface, which was amply large enough for Eagle and Crow to roost upon.

In the Yoku myth the world is rebuilt by three birds, Crow, Eagle and Duck

The Cherokee Creation Myth
The earth is a great island floating in a sea of water, and suspended at each of the four cardinal points by a cord hanging down from the sky vault, which is of solid rock. When the world grows old and worn out, the people will die and the cords will break and let the earth sink down into the ocean, and all will be water again. The Indians are afraid of this.


Fear due to a previous episode of flooding?

When all was water, the animals were above in Gälûñ'lätï, beyond the arch; but it was very much crowded, and they were wanting more room. They wondered what was below the water, and at last Dâyuni'sï, "Beaver's Grandchild," the little Water-beetle, offered to go and see if it could learn. It darted in every direction over the surface of the water, but could find no firm place to rest. Then it dived to the bottom and came up with some soft mud, which began to grow and spread on every side until it became the island which we call the earth. It was afterward fastened to the sky with four cords, but no one remembers who did this.

At first the earth was flat and very soft and wet. The animals were anxious to get down, and sent out different birds to see if it was yet dry, but they found no place to alight and came back again to Gälûñ'lätï. At last it seemed to be time, and they sent out the Buzzard and told him to go and make ready for them.


Chumash Creation Myth
The Chumash myth tells of a great deluge which engulfed the earth, taking with it all living things save for the Spotted Woodpecker, the nephew of Kaqunupenawa, the Sun God.


Creek Creation Myth
The Eagle walked to the Crawfish and took the wet soil from between his claws. Round and round he rolled the soil between his powerful legs.

Then, with a mighty flapping of his huge wings, he soared high above the Council. "What is he doing with the earth in his legs?" Does he intend to steal it?" they cried. Then, with a mighty swish, he hurled the red ball of soil earthward. The soil traveled so fast that it looked like a shooting star falling from the sky. A mighty roar sounded when the ball hit the oceans, making a large wave that parted the water.

The red soil spread out and flattened so much that the earth was made in one move. At first, the lands were very wet, so the Eagle flew over them and dried them with his mighty wings. Soon the lands were dry enough to let the animal migration begin.


Iroquois
Long, long ago, in the great past, there were no people on the earth. All of it was covered by deep water. Birds, flying, filled the air, and many huge monsters possessed the waters.


Lakota Creation Myth
A long time ago, a really long time when the world was still freshly made, Unktehi the water monster fought the people and caused a great flood. Perhaps the Great Spirit, Wakan Tanka, was angry with us for some reason. Maybe he let Unktehi win out because he wanted to make a better kind of human being.

Well, the waters got higher and higher. Finally everything was flooded except the hill next to the place where the sacred red pipestone quarry lies today. The people climbed up there to save themselves, but it was no use. The water swept over that hill. Waves tumbled the rocks and pinnacles, smashing them down on the people. Everyone was killed, and all the blood jelled, making one big pool.


Other common elements found in these myths among some tribes include the description of a rainbow bridge and a woman falling from heaven.
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Postby Forum Monk » Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:11 pm

john wrote:Its time to bell the cat.

In my opinion, there is no

Argument which can unequivocally demonstrate

That unbroken oral tradition cannot extend

Anywhere from 40k to 250k in the past.

Anyone care to take a shot at this one?

Hint: Oral Tradition and the use of Hematite are joined hip-and-thigh.


hoka hey


john


The source I quoted above did not carry the Hopi myths cited in your link. But in my opinion, the Hopi legend is probably older than the others by a long shot. Forty thousand years perhaps. But it is difficult to preserve the integrity of the story for so long and yet its similarity to those in asia and europe seems to indicate a way was found to preserve the stories. So...either they are not of great antiquity or the method of preservation is unknown to us.
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Postby john » Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:31 pm

Forum Monk wrote:
john wrote:Its time to bell the cat.

In my opinion, there is no

Argument which can unequivocally demonstrate

That unbroken oral tradition cannot extend

Anywhere from 40k to 250k in the past.

Anyone care to take a shot at this one?

Hint: Oral Tradition and the use of Hematite are joined hip-and-thigh.


hoka hey


john


The source I quoted above did not carry the Hopi myths cited in your link. But in my opinion, the Hopi legend is probably older than the others by a long shot. Forty thousand years perhaps. But it is difficult to preserve the integrity of the story for so long and yet its similarity to those in asia and europe seems to indicate a way was found to preserve the stories. So...either they are not of great antiquity or the method of preservation is unknown to us.



Good God, Man!

Are you disputing the Bishop,

James Ussher?

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/project ... ssher.html

You are a heretic, and you will burn in hell.


cheers


john
"Man is a marvellous curiosity. When he is at his very, very best he is sort of a low-grade nickel-plated angel; at his worst he is unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a sarcasm."

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Postby rich » Sat Jun 14, 2008 5:33 pm

I remember reading something once about some tribe that recounted an oral tradition and from what the writer said it was virually unchanged - don't know how he would've known that but - - - .

Have also seen where two different persons from the same tribe (young people at that) were asked to recite a part of their history and it was vertually identical in each case.
i'm not lookin' for who or what made the earth - just who got me dizzy by makin it spin
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