Ancient ritual burial practices

The study of religious or heroic legends and tales. One constant rule of mythology is that whatever happens amongst the gods or other mythical beings was in one sense or another a reflection of events on earth. Recorded myths and legends, perhaps preserved in literature or folklore, have an immediate interest to archaeology in trying to unravel the nature and meaning of ancient events and traditions.

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Postby Digit » Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:25 pm

Rich. A person's place of birth is hardly the deciding factor in his or her possible religion.

http://i-cias.com/e.o/judaism.htm

Currently people claiming to be Jews are Semitic, Chinese, Indian, European, American. Black, Brown, White and Yellow.
Abram worshiped Yhwh, therefore he was a Jew. Exactly as someone worshiping Allah is a Muslim, their colour or birthplace is irrelevant.
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Postby rich » Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:38 pm

Abraham didn't know him as YHVH - instead he knew god as El Shaddai (which the Jews tied to YHVH) but still - the name - or title - is different.
Shaddai was an Amorite village and El Shaddai was the god of that village. YHVH didn't actually come in until Jacob. It's possible they were in a transition period between worshipping gods from different areas and trying to tie them all into one. Or perhaps it was the same god - wasn't there so I really couldn't say - just trying to see how it could have gotten patched together.
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Postby Ishtar » Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:04 pm

Linguist Frank Moore Cross associates 'Shaddai' with 'mountain', making El Shadday Lord of the Mountain. Maybe the Amorite village was on a mountain?

Mountains were often seen as gods. For instance Sinai is named after the Babylonian god, Sin.
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Postby rich » Fri Jun 06, 2008 4:52 am

It is interesting to note, Ish, that El Shaddai is by some said to be Shiva also. :D

And from Wiki:

The root word "shadad" (שדד) means "to overpower" or "to destroy".


And also from Wiki:

Another theory is that Shaddai is a derivation of a Semitic stem that appears in the Akkadian shadû ("mountain") and shaddā`û or shaddû`a ("mountain-dweller"), one of the names of Amurru.


:D

A mountain that destroys? Vulcano maybe? eh - maybe not.
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Postby Ishtar » Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:16 am

Interesting, Rich.
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Postby kbs2244 » Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:51 am

Rich:
It was a matter of respect and obedience.
They weren’t slaves, or robots. They had free will.
They were allowed to sin if they wanted to.
It was a kind of test.
Eve was deceived, but Adam wasn’t.
And he blew it.

Digit:
I would have to agree that Abraham was not a Jew, although he certainly was the father of the Jews. (Maybe, more correctly the “Hebrews.”)
Genesis 25 tells us that after Sarah died he re-married and had six more sons as well as daughters.
The promise he received from God, was that he would become the father of “many nations” and have seed “like the sands of the sea.”
And much of the Mid-East can claim him as a forefather.
But the most important part of the promise was that the Messiah would be one of his decedents.
For whatever reason, that promised Messiah’s line of decent was narrowed down to the line from Isaac, and then to Jacob.
It was because of this knowledge of the amount of Abraham’s decedents that the Jews (Hebrews) later referred to themselves as decedents of “Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”
If there is a “Father of the Jews” as a separate people, it would be Jacob.

But Abraham’s direct descendents were not the only worshipers of Yahweh.
(Whether he, or they, knew him by that name or not.)
Job was not related to Abraham but was included in the OT as a worshiper of Yahweh.
And neither were the Jews. (Hebrews) as descendents of Jacob.
When Moses ran away from Egypt as a murder suspect, why in the world would he go to the Sinai?
As an Egyptian prince he certainly knew of more comfortable places where he would be welcome.
I suspect he went in that direction because he knew it to be inhabited by fellow worshipers of Yahweh. That is how his eventual father in law Jethro is described.
Jethro may have been a decedents of Abraham, but he was not “Jew,” meaning being from the line of Isaac and Jacob.

In short, the OT is not about the worshipers of Yahweh.
It is about the coming of the Messiah.
As time went on the families it refers to became narrower and narrower.
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Postby Digit » Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:59 am

Being Jewish I would have to argue otherwise,

http://i-cias.com/e.o/judaism.htm

[/quote]THE COVENANT
The central theme of Judaism, is the covenant between the Jews and God. This was first made Abraham, from whom the Jewish believe they came. This covenant was renewed with Abraham's son Isaac, and Abraham's grand son Jacob.
The covenant was extended as Moses was given the Ten Commandments and other laws. From this, the Jews learn how they should lead their lives.
The covenant involves that the Jews are a chosen people, giving them certain rights as well as responsibilities.[quote][/quote]
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Postby rich » Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:07 pm

Ah - so does that make Ishmael Jewish?

And KB - who said they had free will?
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Postby Digit » Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:18 pm

Ah - so does that make Ishmael Jewish?


Whadda you trying to do Rich, upset the Muslim world? The covenant with Abram was sealed with the rite of circumcision, Abram worshiped YWHW, Ishmael/Israel was his son.
Judaism and Islam both consider Ishmael/Israel as the founder of the Arab people, both claim that the rite of circumcision seals their covenant with YWHW and Allah. Occam's razor says that YWHW and Allah are the same.
(I'd better find my tin hat!)
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Postby kbs2244 » Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:19 pm

Ishmael was not a decedent of Isaac.
Therefore, not Jewish
All Jews (Hebrews) are decedents of Abraham, bit not all decedents of Abraham are Jews.

And, if they didn‘t have free will, how could they do something they were not supposed to do?
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Postby kbs2244 » Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:26 pm

Bad typo in this argument.
I meant Ishmael was not a decedent of Jacob.
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Postby rich » Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:28 pm

I wouldn't call it free will if they got punished like that for eating dessert first! If it was me, I would've eaten from the fruit of the tree of life and then that :D

Ishmael wasn't Israel - Israel was Jacob's name after he struggled with the lord.

As far as JHVH being one and the same as El Shaddai I don't know. It's what the Jews say, but I wasn't there. And don't forget it was the anger of the lord that went with Moses. It was also this anger that gave the Jews the law.
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Postby Digit » Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:28 pm

And, if they didn‘t have free will, how could they do something they were not supposed to do?


Good point.
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