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Fish Story

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:18 pm
by Minimalist
http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/tre80d0lk-us-fishing-artefacts/

Fishy find shows humans skilled anglers 42,000 years ago

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:34 pm
by kbs2244
OK
Talk to me….

What kind of intelligence does it take to look at a snail shell,
recognize that if I cut it into a slice of what I am holding,
I would now have something that I could put a chunk of whatever those big fish out there that I find tasty like to eat,
and maybe they will swallow it and get it snagged in their gut so that I can drag it in to then eat it?

That seems like a lot of step by step thinking in advance of action.

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:44 am
by Digit
There's a bit more to it than that I suspect. Logic would seem to suggest that the first fishing would have been by catching trapped fish in rock pools when the tide withdrew.
I doubt that fishing with a lure was the kick off.

Roy.

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:45 am
by kbs2244
I can accept the catching of trapped fish as a way of developing a taste for them.
But it seems a long jump from foraging trapped fish to hunting by designing and then baiting a hook.
Spearing seems to make sense as a first step.

But baiting is a lot more subtle.
(Fishing lures are a multi-million dollar business. Although I sometimes think the true catch is the one holding to pole, not the one at the end of the string.)

Just recognizing that a snail shell could be made into a hook is a big step in it’s self.
Then, how do you learn what to use as bait?

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:11 pm
by Digit
Spearing seems to make sense as a first step.


Yep! Even catching a fish by hand in a rock pool could be fun! Stabbing it makes more sense.
A hook is not necessary, having decided on the idea of bait working, gorge baiting was much used here in past days.

Roy.

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:14 pm
by circumspice
kbs2244 wrote:I can accept the catching of trapped fish as a way of developing a taste for them.
But it seems a long jump from foraging trapped fish to hunting by designing and then baiting a hook.
Spearing seems to make sense as a first step.

Yes, spearing or netting would seem to be a sensible way to harvest trapped fish...

kbs2244 wrote:But baiting is a lot more subtle.
(Fishing lures are a multi-million dollar business. Although I sometimes think the true catch is the one holding to pole, not the one at the end of the string.)

AMEN BROTHER!!! :lol:

kbs2244 wrote:Just recognizing that a snail shell could be made into a hook is a big step in it’s self.
Then, how do you learn what to use as bait?


Why would making a hook be such a big step? Logically, it is just another barbed tool. Spearheads, arrowheads and harpoons are also barbed tools...
The ingenious part is 'seeing' the potential of making a hook from the spiral shell of a snail... But hooks are curved, and so are many types of shells.

And why would bait be need to be used? I used to fish for crappie at a marina in the Toledo Bend Reservoir with a bare hook and I always came home
with more than enough of them to make a meal for 4-6 people. (they're small fish) Apparently the 'lure' of a bare hook is in its shininess.
I was astonished when my mother showed me that trick. :shock:

I would imagine that baiting the hook came about when, as happens to all fishermen occasionally, the fish just weren't biting... Maybe an enterprising fisherman
decided to bait the hook with part of his lunch out of desperation... Who knows? But believing that using hooks and/or bait is a huge cognitive leap is probably an
insult to the intelligence of ancient people. In my opinion, if you are hungry enough, you will try just about any new idea to assuage that hunger.

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:52 pm
by Digit
Rather like a nuclear bomb, the theory is easy, the construction isn't. Firstly you need suitable material, next you need a tool to make the hook and finally some form of line.
Making something like a number 16 hook from bone would be something of a challenge, large hooks means large fish. A gorge is much simpler.

Roy.

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 5:48 pm
by Minimalist
One imagines that when times got rough our ancestors would not be above scavenging fish which washed up on shore.

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:50 pm
by circumspice
Minimalist wrote:One imagines that when times got rough our ancestors would not be above scavenging fish which washed up on shore.


Yeah. I've read accounts of famines in medieval times where starving peasants would eat grass just to fill an empty belly. I imagine I would do much the same. :(

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:47 pm
by kbs2244
Back to the original news release.

There is no indication of a “starvation” of “survival” situation.

It world seem that this was a regular part of the daily diet.

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:08 am
by circumspice
kbs2244 wrote:Back to the original news release.

There is no indication of a “starvation” of “survival” situation.

It world seem that this was a regular part of the daily diet.


I disagree. Prior to agriculture, animal domestication and sedentary lifestyles, cyclical starvation was the status quo.
Forensic studies of ancient human remains (& their hominid ancestors) show frequent episodic cycles of starvation.
This is easily diagnosed through examining teeth, which are the most common type of remains found for all species of hominids.

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:14 am
by Minimalist
It world seem that this was a regular part of the daily diet.


At some point in time the first guy had to look at a fish and say " I wonder how that tastes." Fish washed up on shore or (best case) trapped in a tidal pool would seem to be a logical way for that first encounter to have gone down.

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:21 am
by kbs2244
“cyclical starvation was the status quo.
Forensic studies of ancient human remains (& their hominid ancestors) show frequent episodic cycles of starvation. “

Maybe so. But if it was “cyclical” that would make it “regular.”


At some point in time the first guy had to look at a fish and say " I wonder how that tastes."

I have always wondered about the guy that said that about a snail!
But then mabe that came after he cut one up to use the shell for a fish hook.
What came first; the hook or the meal?

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:57 am
by Minimalist
And somewhere along the way some guy looked at a lobster and said " melted butter would be perfect with that! "

Re: Fish Story

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:56 pm
by Digit
Fish, along with snails, were probably scavenged long before we became 'human' enough to work out how to catch them or cook them. I also doubt that a snail's shell is strong enough to make a worthwhile hook.
In most regions, once the hook idea is thought of, mother nature supplies her own hooks. Ask anyone who prunes roses.

Roy.