This Might Upset a Few Applecarts

The science or study of primitive societies and the nature of man.

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Re: This Might Upset a Few Applecarts

Postby Minimalist » Fri Sep 18, 2009 2:59 pm

I suspect that such a system did not grow overnight, Roy. Nor will you fix it overnight.

Might be a good time to start, however. You do have an election coming up soon, don't you?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: This Might Upset a Few Applecarts

Postby Digit » Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:45 pm

We have, thank God! No Min, it didn't occur over night but became uncontrollable under the present admin.
Our health service is the biggest employer in Europe and employs more staff than the Chinese army!
Productivity has fallen 25 per cent under this mob and now, directly or indirectly one in four or five wage earners is employed by the government and so represent a negative effect on tax revenues.
In addition government employees have vastly better pension rights than those in the private sector, which is causing resentment.
Even some ministers are now beginning to understand that this is not a sustainable scenario.
The problem is they can't find a way out of the mess they created.
Such is the depressive effect on people's ambition that sometime ago an ex school boy successfully sued his school for failing to teach him how to claim welfare!
So far have our education standards fallen that the government depts are employing people to teach their staff punctuation and grammar! This after eleven years of education! Even teachers are having to be taught this as their teachers failed to teach them!
Great Britain my foot!

Roy.
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Re: This Might Upset a Few Applecarts

Postby Minimalist » Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:24 pm

So far have our education standards fallen that the government depts are employing people to teach their staff punctuation and grammar!



Many moons ago (mid 1980's) I was an instructor of new government employees (before my attitude totally went to shit, that is) and the job was a very technical position. So one day I received a new (revised) training manual to go over before a class started. To my great surprise the manual contained a segment on what I can only call "remedial math". How to add and subtract decimal points and such. Somewhat bemused I took it to my supervisor and asked for his opinion. He was so incredulous that he called his boss and asked what was going on.

The answer came back that the government was not capable of attracting a sufficient number of qualified recruits and this was a way of trying to salvage some of what fell through the door. I taught the class, was horrified to see what they were planning to unleash on the public, and resigned as an instructor.

One day while I was teaching I noted one of my "students" reading the paper in class. I moved up behind him prepared to shock him into paying attention but as I got close I noticed that he was reading the Employment Want Ads. I decided he had the right idea and said nothing.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: This Might Upset a Few Applecarts

Postby Digit » Fri Sep 18, 2009 4:44 pm

You don't know the half of it Min.
Blair decided that 50 percent of school leavers should go to university, but as the system, or the students weren't up to it they made the exams easier and broadened the curriculum.
Now 97 percent of school leavers are passing their exams!
One student, faced with a question he couldn't answer wrote 'F--k off!' the answer was marked and points awarded for correct spelling and expressive use of language!
A group of failed student recent appealed their inability to answer the question ' was the Nazi regime despotic?' apparently they did not know what despotic meant.
You can now get a degree in soap operas and media studies, watching TV and reading the press!
They are even issuing certificates for washing your hands or using public transport.
I kid you not!

Roy.
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Re: This Might Upset a Few Applecarts

Postby Minimalist » Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:29 pm

One student, faced with a question he couldn't answer wrote 'F--k off!' the answer was marked and points awarded for correct spelling and expressive use of language!



I hope he didn't get full credit, though?


I don't know what to tell you, Roy. I have a very close friend who, at the age of 40 when her kids were grown decided that she was going to go to college at night starting at a community college and then transferring to The Citadel. She's been at it for about 4 years and I'm very proud of her because she is maintaining a 3.6+ GPA.

BUT. Her description of what goes on in the classes is mind-boggling. Tests every time you turn around, quizzes on specific chapters, bonus point questions; one of her World History papers was to write a report from the point of view of Alexander the Great's HORSE! (I can't make this shit up....I'm not that clever.) The professors are evaluated, at least to some extent, on the number of students who pass.

I graduated in 1971. Almost every course had a mid-term and a final and a term paper. Quizzes were left behind in high school and the profs didn't care if you showed up or not and certainly didn't care if you passed or failed. Not their problem.

So, yes. things have changed and not for the better.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: This Might Upset a Few Applecarts

Postby Digit » Fri Sep 18, 2009 5:41 pm

Your personal experience mirrors my own and what you say about the horse is being mirrored here as well. Employers say they prefer to hire immigrants 'cos they work harder and are better educated.
Can't argue with that.
Blair's Britain!

Roy.
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Re: This Might Upset a Few Applecarts

Postby Minimalist » Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:21 pm

We attained the same thing without Blair.

This is not a problem to blame on one man.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Re: This Might Upset a Few Applecarts

Postby Digit » Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:43 am

This is not a problem to blame on one man.


He was in charge, he carries the can!

Roy.
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Re: This Might Upset a Few Applecarts

Postby Minimalist » Sat Sep 19, 2009 8:27 am

In the 1990's Rudy Giuliani as mayor of NY claimed credit for sharply decreased crime stats. I wondered if he was also mayor of Baltimore, Detroit and San Francisco at the same time as crime stats dropped all across the country.
I'm sure the sociologists will one day study the issue (as well as yours) and write a long boring report on the matter.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Re: This Might Upset a Few Applecarts

Postby jw1815 » Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:10 am

Minimalist wrote:
A thorough overhaul of the obsolete Constitution, judicial/legal system, national health care system, electoral/political system, and Ivy League schools is enough.



Sorry, R/S. I shudder to think what this collection of fascists in the streets would want in such a revised constitution.


And so do I. They're the ones also promoting the idea that a violent revolution might be necessary to "take back the country." Right wing talk show hosts hint at it and the town hall self-proclaimed "patriots" carry openly displayed guns to meetings, even ones where the President is present. It's a visible message to intimidate those who don't agree with them and encourage those who do. Arms and ammunition sales have gone up sharply since Obama's inauguration and militias and armed hate groups have increased in numbers and visibility again. I think they're just hoping for some type of incident to become a rallying cry, maybe trying to provoke one.

You want to really shudder, min? Think about which side of the political spectrum is the most armed, and has the most dogs bred as attack dogs for pets. Think about the chaos of an armed rebellion, and the mentality of the people who promote the idea.
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Re: This Might Upset a Few Applecarts

Postby jw1815 » Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:13 am

What national republican leaders are stepping forward to denounce the nut jobs? I can't think of any.


And that’s what’s most disturbing. They don’t want to denounce the nut jobs. In fact, they encourage them, in the hope of building an anti-Obama movement that will benefit them politically.
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Re: This Might Upset a Few Applecarts

Postby jw1815 » Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:20 am

RS

And that Sword of Damocles over Obama's head is by itself probably enough to 'keep him in line'. Making him effectively a puppet, a placeholder.


I don’t agree. Obama was already a member of the political establishment before running for president or he couldn’t have got the necessary party backing to do it. So, to some extent, he’s going to represent some political establishment views. To me, that’s a given. I think that people on the left who expect a Dennis Kucinich to reach the highest office or on the right who expect a Ron Paul to do the same are self-delusional. Party establishment candidates aren’t anything new in American politics. There never was such a thing as an idyllic past in American politics of the “average man” representing people in government. Maybe some who had a populist following, but not who were every day, average citizens. Not on a national level, and only on a limited basis at more local state and community levels. Our first presidents – Washington, Jefferson, and Adams – weren’t average, every day Americans. Neither is Kucinich or Ron Paul, for that matter. I used to live in Cleveland when Kucinich was the mayor. He’s been a politician for most of his adult life.

So, Obama is a member of a political establishment. But, he’s still an individual who gives his own input, policies, and ideas on the direction that the establishment takes. And regardless of what establishment backs him, the people – the masses – still have their input, too, and no candidate can make it without them, as well. Obama is running into problems with political opposition right now precisely because he’s bucking the opposition establishment. His political opposition is trying to turn the tide of public opinion in their own favor, for their own agenda. My problem is the agenda that they promote and the crazies who follow them. We had 8 years of that idiocy and don’t need a return to it.
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Re: This Might Upset a Few Applecarts

Postby kbs2244 » Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:21 am

“They’re the ones also promoting the idea that a violent revolution might be necessary to "take back the country."”

I am not suggesting it is the way to go now, but it was once.

In their strong concern over an overreaching, bloated, unresponsive central government the men that started this country carried their guns to taverns and made their plans.

The very foundations of the U.S. are tied in closely with guns and alcohol.
One of the tipping points was when the English General in Boston purposed confiscating all civilian owned guns.
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Re: This Might Upset a Few Applecarts

Postby Minimalist » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:45 pm

purposed confiscating all civilian owned guns.



The use of the word "civilian" is mis-leading there. The British had equipped the Colonial militia with the standard Brown Bess musket/bayonet. These were not the private property of the miltiamen. Gen. Gage had information of Colonial ammunition stores in Lexington and Concord and sent a column to confiscate those.

The notion that the Americans were using hunting rifles is a popular misconception. Militia companies from the entire area came scrambling and popped away at the retiring British. Had they been using actual rifles the miserable American marksmanship of that day would be less understandable. The muskets were notoriously inaccurate but still, they hammered the British column by sheer volume of fire.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Re: This Might Upset a Few Applecarts

Postby jw1815 » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:21 pm

kbs2244 wrote: One of the tipping points was when the English General in Boston purposed confiscating all civilian owned guns.


I hope your mention of this doesn't mean you're among the people who mistakenly think that Obama intends to confiscate civilian owned guns.
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