Human Race.

The science or study of primitive societies and the nature of man.

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Postby Rokcet Scientist » Wed May 13, 2009 6:53 am

Digit wrote:Or perhaps logic!


Surprise me: if the islands weren't connected, so that HE/HS couldn't walk across, and he also didn't use 'boats', nor winged elephants, then how did he get across? Because he did!

You seem to relish shooting down others' arguments with cheap shots but sofar I haven't seen any constructive alternatives worthy of consideration from you. That's an immature way of 'debating'.
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Postby Digit » Wed May 13, 2009 7:16 am

Let's try logic.
We have a barrier, we'll call it the 'Wallace Line,' beyond it the land produces a distinct animal fauna of entirely marsupial mammals. (Other than Bats)
On the other side of the barrier the fauna are placental mammals.
One species crosses that line successfully and occupies the previously isolated land.
That species is not as large as others, nor can it swim as well as others, yet it crossed that barrier that was, and still is, deep water.
On the Asian side of the barrier all visible land masses, visible from each other, are occupied by animals that are physically better able to cross that barrier than our sample species.
The only logical deduction from that is that our sample species had some ability that all other species lacked, and still lack.
That ability, logically has to be a means of navigating deep water.
Any other scenario would seem to be illogical!

Roy.
First people deny a thing, then they belittle it, then they say it was known all along! Von Humboldt
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Postby Minimalist » Wed May 13, 2009 7:59 am

When you recall the "floating vegetation mats" you see the extremes that the anti-boating crowd will go to in order to denigrate our ancestors' sailing capabilities.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Postby Digit » Wed May 13, 2009 8:16 am

Quite agree there Min, it's plain insulting.
When you look at the methods of water travel that we do have evidence for, and the materials available to them, their ingenuity and skill is admirable. The surviving craft also suggest that there is a considerable history behind them.
There are over thirty rivers in mainland Britain that would require miles of deviation before finding fordable depth, and in Europe the Rhine and Danube would have been major obstacles for foot sloggers, not counting the Seine, Dordogne, Meuse, Somme, Tiber, Oder, Weser, etc.
Our local Coracle makers can produce such a craft in just a few hours. Much easier than walking an unknown mileage upstream.
They also use them to string Seine nets.

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Postby Rokcet Scientist » Wed May 13, 2009 9:29 am

Digit wrote:[...] The surviving craft also suggest [...]


What 'surviving craft' would that be, Roy?
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Postby Digit » Wed May 13, 2009 9:37 am

Looks like you're reading a different post to mine RS or you have misunderstood. There's Roman, Iron Age, Viking, Egyptian, Welsh etc etc etc.

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Postby Minimalist » Wed May 13, 2009 10:34 am

There are lots of rivers that they'd have to cross before ever reaching northern Europe. The number of rivers flowing down from interior highlands all throughout the ME and Turkey is staggering and each river crossing would have been a major undertaking. The fact that they did make the journey suggests that such crossings were not serious impediments to these people. Small bands would have not wanted to run the risk of unnecessary losses at every river crossing.

They KNEW how to cross rivers. In fact, travel by sea would have been much safer than travel over land. I'm not at all convinced that they walked anywhere. A tactical model of people sailing up the coast line, hunting/fishing/foraging as they go, seems to make a lot more sense.

And all they need are boats....which Bednarik has shown they had at 800,000 ypb.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Postby Digit » Wed May 13, 2009 10:47 am

Currently we have a group of British climatologists exploring the sea ice on the northern polar cap, and having a rough time of it. Due to the circulation of the ice it's extremely uneven and the going's pretty tough.
Not something most people would want to deal with on a daily basis, any more than spending the day pushing their way through brush wood and undergrowth. Give me rivers every time!

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Postby Minimalist » Wed May 13, 2009 11:05 am

I went to college in Oswego, NY which sits right on the southern shore of Lake Ontario. Every winter, pack ice would form...usually all the way out to the horizon. It would pile up against the rocks on the shore and was great to watch the waves push it around.

Every year, the police and mayor's office would publish dire warnings about the instability of pack ice.

Every year....some asshole would walk out on it, fall through, and drown.

I don't think that ice was more stable 100,000 years ago.

Paddling a canoe, upstream, even against the current would seem to be a far more efficient way of travel. Fresh water (by definition) animals attracted to it for hunting. Vegetation tends to be thicker.

It just seems like a no brainer compared to overland travel.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Postby Rokcet Scientist » Wed May 13, 2009 11:09 am

Digit wrote:Looks like you're reading a different post to mine RS or you have misunderstood. There's Roman, Iron Age, Viking, Egyptian, Welsh etc etc etc.


"Roman, Iron Age, Viking, Egyptian, Welsh etc etc etc." boats are 5,000 years old max. 5,000 year old boats don't prove HS had them 67,000 years earlier, or that HE had them 795,000 years earlier!

I'm not saying neither HE nor HS had boats. They did, of course. Logic dictates it. But to put up practically brandnew 5,000 year old boats as proof for it is nonsense.

That's like saying: they had telephones in 1890, we know that. Therefore the Romans must have had telephones too...
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Postby Digit » Wed May 13, 2009 11:24 am

5,000 year old boats as proof for it is nonsense.


I was right, you did misunderstand me. I said that the sophistication of surviving craft showed experience and development going back many years.

The surviving craft also suggest that there is a considerable history behind them.


I'm not saying neither HE nor HS had boats. They did, of course. Logic dictates it.


So can we now bury the idea of walking to Australia?

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Postby Rokcet Scientist » Wed May 13, 2009 1:01 pm

Digit wrote:
So can we now bury the idea of walking to Australia?



No. Because walking is far easier. You can move a magnitude or 2, or 3, or 4 more people walking than was ever possible by boat (until cruise ships...). They would walk when they could. And they could from Papua to Oz.
So maybe a few, or even a dozen or two, managed to sail to Oz from Timor, but those were daredevils, maybe explorers, that never came back and eventually perished on the strange coast. They were not settlers, colonizers!
The actual colonisation and settling of Oz was ON FOOT. By at least a few hundred hybrid HE/HS that sauntered in from Papua.
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Postby Digit » Wed May 13, 2009 1:20 pm

Take a look at this, you might wish to change your ideas about ease of walking.

http://www.welt.de/english-news/article ... -area.html

During WW2 Australian troops fought through this forest, and suffered dreadfully, check it for yourself.

And they could from Papua to Oz.


Seeing as it was one land mass I find that quite reasonable.

The actual colonisation and settling of Oz was ON FOOT. By at least a few hundred hybrid


According to geneticists there were just a few dozen, not hundreds. Why was that I wonder if it was so easy?

So maybe a few, or even a dozen or two, managed to sail to Oz from Timor, but those were daredevils, maybe explorers, that never came back and eventually perished on the strange coast. They were not settlers, colonizers!


Do you wish to offer any evidence in support of that contention?

Roy.
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Postby Minimalist » Wed May 13, 2009 1:40 pm

You can move a magnitude or 2, or 3, or 4 more people walking than was ever possible by boat



These were not the Goths moving into the Roman Empire. HG groups tend to be small.

Whoever said they made ONE BIG BOAT? Once you know how to make a boat making the second, third and fourth boats seems to be a simple matter.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Postby Digit » Wed May 13, 2009 1:50 pm

Saved me commenting Min, ta!
This might be of interest.

http://www.durolitum.co.uk/articles/curraghs.html

Roy.
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