War, Female Slavery - 5,000 BC

The science or study of primitive societies and the nature of man.

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Postby Forum Monk » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:03 pm

PaulMarcW wrote:If abduction is akin to slavery, the Iliad and the Odyssey are full of scenes as women being spoken of as the spoils of war - full of the slavery of women.


I don't think the goal of this behavior was the degradation or the subjugation of women. I think it was more a way of humiliating the men vanquished in battle. An insult to their manhood, if you will.
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Postby Minimalist » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:27 pm

Forum Monk wrote:
Minimalist wrote:You put a Jew, a Christian and a Muslim in the same room and the only thing they are likely to agree on is: "Them bitches need a smack."


Sorry Min. I think that's bull crap.



You need to read all 3 books, then.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Postby Ishtar » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:08 pm

Monk, sadly not everyone's such a kind gentleman as you.

But I think Min is referring to the orthodox of each religion. I have noticed that the more orthodox the belief, the less women are respected, although that is a sweeping generalisation. But men take their lead from their religion - whether consciously or subconsciously, and most religions today (I also include Hinduism) regard women as second class citizens.

There's the row about women priests in the Christian church. And the Jews won't even let them into the main bit of their synagogues. They've twisted the Adam and Eve story to make women the root of all evil and the source of original sin.

Women are treated appallingly in India - some men there get offended if I address them as an equal, no matter how poliitely. You may find this surprising, but I've learned, when I'm there, that it's just easier to go along with this, and I adopt very different behaviours. It's just to give me a smoother path ... otherwise, I'd have to have a fight on every corner.

You don't notice this discrimination if you're a man, Monk.

:cry:
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Postby Minimalist » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:18 am

But I think Min is referring to the orthodox of each religion.



Naturally....the ones who think they are "god's gift."


Curiously, alone of the three of them, early christianity may have been different according to Professor Bart Ehrman. But, when they got around to codifying things they wrote in all the anti-female stuff for which they are now so unjustly proud.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Postby Digit » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:12 pm

The current schism threatening the Anglican Church rests on two precepts.
One that homosexuality is condemned in the Torah, the Koran and the Bible and that women should not be ordained.
The first statement is correct, the second is correct in Islam and Judaism but is on less certain ground in Christianity.
St Paul had no problems with his 'Sisters'.
I have on a number of occasions been called a racist for condemning Judaism, Islam and Asian men for their treatment of women, and I love it, 'cos if that is racism then anti racism is anti feminism.
Usually kills the argument stone dead!


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Postby Forum Monk » Thu Jul 17, 2008 1:54 pm

No doubt the world is a patriarchy, but it is an oversimplification and misleading to blame that on religion and in particular the abrahamic religions. While I half expect Daybrown to jump in here at any minute, I would say the current partriarchy is probably as much as 10,000 years old. Granted some exceptions in certain areas may have existed at various times in history.
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Postby Ishtar » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:29 pm

Two thousand years old, Monk, in the Middle East.

There, the honouring of the divine feminine was ended by Literalist Christianity. Until then, at the top of every pantheon from Egypt to Akkad, and Sumeria to Babylon and Canaan, was a supreme goddess who was married to her male supreme god counterpart.

They were strong, mighty goddesses who were equal in power to their male partners but complementary in attributes, like Yin and Yang.

Even the Old Testament had the supreme goddess Sophia, and one way the Christian translators of the English versions tried to hide her was to change her name to Wisdom.

In Proverbs 8:27-31, Sophia says:

When God set the heavens in place, I was present,
When God drew a ring on the surface of the deep,
When God fixed the clouds above,
When God fixed fast the wells of the deep,
when God assigned the sea its limits-
and the waters will not invade the land,
when God established the foundations of the earth,
I was by God's side, a master craftswoman,
delighting God day after day,
ever at play by God's side,
at play everywhere in God's domain,
delighting to be with the children of humanity.

That is why the Jewish Gnostic Philo taught about Sophia and the Logos (the First Cause).

And Paul (in reality a Gnostic) refers to her in some of the epistles that managed to escape the forgeries and cutting knives of the Literalists. Paul says:

"Among the initiates, we speak of Sophia...for it is the secret of Sophia that is taught in our Mysteries". 1 Corinthians 2-6.

Literalist Christianity changed all that turning by one Mary into an anodyne Stepford Wife with nothing to say for herself, and the other Mary into a no good, down and dirty prostitute.

Thus the madonna/whore complex, the neurotic schism, was born that still haunts men to this day who yearn for a madonna in the kitchen but a whore in the bedroom. I may have mentioned this before, but it really hit home to me a number of years ago when I was walking through the red light district in Valetta, Malta and saw that between every brothel stood a statue of the Virgin Mary.

So I'm afraid it was the Christians, Monk, who did for the divine feminine in the Middle East.
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Postby Digit » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:51 pm

It's a religious thing all right, but it also reflects culture, and in my opinion, a massive male inferiority complex!

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Postby Forum Monk » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:03 pm

Ishtar wrote:Even the Old Testament had the supreme goddess Sophia, and one way the Christian translators of the English versions tried to hide her was to change her name to Wisdom.

In Proverbs 8:27-31, Sophia says:

When God set the heavens in place, I was present,
When God drew a ring on the surface of the deep,
When God fixed the clouds above,
When God fixed fast the wells of the deep,
when God assigned the sea its limits-
and the waters will not invade the land,
when God established the foundations of the earth,
I was by God's side, a master craftswoman,
delighting God day after day,
ever at play by God's side,
at play everywhere in God's domain,
delighting to be with the children of humanity.
And Paul (in reality a Gnostic) refers to her in some of the epistles that managed to escape the forgeries and cutting knives of the Literalists. Paul says:

"Among the initiates, we speak of Sophia...for it is the secret of Sophia that is taught in our Mysteries". 1 Corinthians 2-6.

Those translations are total corruptions Ishtar. I don't know if you made them up yourself or copied them from someone else but that is not what the text says nor is it in context.

If I were to write "my grandfather displayed supreme wisdom" some idiot with an agenda could one day quote me as saying "my grandfather displayed the omnipotent Sophia" - and of course it would not reflect what I was saying in the least. One can't just substitute equivalent words out of context and claim it valid.
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Postby Forum Monk » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:07 pm

One more thing, goddess were not human were they?
How do you think women were treated in the ancient middle east - with devine reverence? They weren't worshipped any more than the men were. Of course I am not talking about nobles, just the day to day people.
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Postby Digit » Thu Jul 17, 2008 3:19 pm

Never mind the past Monk, look at today. Due to female infanticide there is a surplus of 50 million men in India alone. In China the surplus of males is being blamed for a massive rise in drunkenness, rape and kidnapping.
According to the UN, in Palestine female infanticide and 'honour' killings cause more deaths than all the Israeli military actions, though you might find it hard to believe if you read the reports from there.

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Postby Ishtar » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:40 pm

Forum Monk wrote:
Those translations are total corruptions Ishtar. I don't know if you made them up yourself or copied them from someone else but that is not what the text says nor is it in context.


Monk - I'm disappointed. I thought you knew me better than that. That you would think that I'd make a Bible passage up? I'm also surprised that you think that someone reaching a different view through their research automatically makes them 'some idiot with an agenda'. If you believe that, I don't think that you and I have much of a basis for a discussion.

My views maybe wrong, sometimes, due to faulty research, but I am never dishonest.

Anyway, I'm afraid that Sophia was an Old Testament goddess, and it was very well understood among people that study these things with an open mind that her name was changed to 'wisdom'. The fullest development of her is in the so-called "Wisdom Books" of the apocryphia in the Greek Pentateuch that were canonised into Christian Scripture and are still used by the Roman Catholic Church.

The 1 Corinthian quote comes from Jesus and the Goddess by Freke and Gandy. I've looked it up and found that it doesn't quite match word for word although the sense remains the same: This is from Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_(wisdom)


Sophia is adopted as the term in the Septuagint for Hebrew חכמות Ḥokmot.

In Judaism, Chokhmah appears alongside the Shekinah, 'the Glory of God', a figure who plays a key role in the cosmology of the Kabbalists as an expression of the feminine aspect of God.

It is a central topic in the "sapiential" books, i.e. the eponymous Book of Wisdom as well as Ecclesiastes and Proverbs. A key passage which personifies Wisdom/Sophia in the Hebrew Bible is Proverbs 8:22-31.

Paul also refers to the concept, notably in 1 Corinthians, but ambiguously, deconstructing worldly wisdom, e.g

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory." (2:7)


Here is the Proverbs passage in its full context straight from Bible Gateway (who I think you trust) and you may notice that she is referred to as 'she' throughout:

1Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

2She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

3She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

4Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.

5O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

6Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

7For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

8All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

10Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

11For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

12I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.

13The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

14Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

15By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.

16By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.

17I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

18Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.

19My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

20I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

21That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

32Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.

33Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.

34Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.

35For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.

36But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

It's difficult to recommend books, because I don't always totally agree with the author on everything they say. But some that I've found useful are:

Sophia in the Biblical Tradition by Susan Cady, Marian Ronan and Hal Taussig

Paul and Politics by Richard A Horsley,
http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&i ... &ct=result

I hope this helps.
Last edited by Ishtar on Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:21 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Postby Ishtar » Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:48 pm

Forum Monk wrote:One more thing, goddess were not human were they?
How do you think women were treated in the ancient middle east - with devine reverence? They weren't worshipped any more than the men were. Of course I am not talking about nobles, just the day to day people.


Oh dear, Monk. Did you not read what I said in my previous post?

Do you really think that I think that women in the Middle East were worshipped as goddesses! ?

You really are insulting my intelligence today ... I don't know why.

In my previous post, I said that people took their cue on how to behave from their religion - if not now, certainly more so then. So when people stopped honouring the feminine divine, it had a direct knock on effect on their behaviour.

Jesus, Monk - get a grip! :D

This discussion is more properly part of the Philo one in the Mythologies section as the central plank of his Jewish Gnostic teachng was that of Sophia as the feminine aspect of the Logos (First Cause or God).

So let's continue in there and leave these gentlemen to their historical discussion.
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Postby Rokcet Scientist » Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:40 pm

Minimalist wrote:So, Isaiah got it wrong regardless.

Arch doesn't want to know.
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