More clues for earlier than Clovis

The science or study of primitive societies and the nature of man.

Moderators: Minimalist, MichelleH

More clues for earlier than Clovis

Postby rich » Thu May 08, 2008 3:21 pm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080508/ap_ ... paUlciANEA

Quote from Yahoo:

"Researchers date the seaweed found at Monte Verde to more than 14,000 years ago, 1,000 years earlier than the well-studied Clovis culture.

And the report comes just a month after other scientists announced they had found coprolites — fossilized human feces — dating to about 14,000 years ago in a cave in Oregon.

Taken together, the finds move back evidence of people in the Americas by a millennium or more, with settlements in northern and southern coastal areas."

Also from yahoo:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080508/sc ... ufSYhxieAA
i'm not lookin' for who or what made the earth - just who got me dizzy by makin it spin
rich
 
Posts: 486
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:08 pm
Location: New York state

Postby Minimalist » Thu May 08, 2008 3:43 pm

with settlements in northern and southern coastal areas."



Which means, of course, that unless someone made a beeline from Oregon to Southern Chile the odds of foot travel between the two drop dramatically.

Boats, anyone?
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Minimalist
 
Posts: 15443
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Postby Rokcet Scientist » Thu May 08, 2008 3:51 pm

I think we expect Monte Verde to be blown out of the water if a proper write up, plotting, catalogueing, and, of course, dating (stratification?) of Charlie's treasures is published. A monumental task, to be sure.
Rokcet Scientist
 

Postby rich » Thu May 08, 2008 5:21 pm

Min - not boats - body board surfing :D
i'm not lookin' for who or what made the earth - just who got me dizzy by makin it spin
rich
 
Posts: 486
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:08 pm
Location: New York state

Postby Minimalist » Thu May 08, 2008 6:04 pm

I might have to agree with the Club if they come out against that theory!
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Minimalist
 
Posts: 15443
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Postby rich » Thu May 08, 2008 6:14 pm

The sick part of it is they'd get wind of it and latch onto it like a starved tiger with a hunk of deer meat and leave you banging your head against a wall. It would be like them.
i'm not lookin' for who or what made the earth - just who got me dizzy by makin it spin
rich
 
Posts: 486
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:08 pm
Location: New York state

Postby kbs2244 » Fri May 09, 2008 9:46 am

When I look at the ocean currents I can see the pacific coast of NA settled by boat from north east Asia. They are basically a big clockwise drift.
But once you cross the Equator, in fact once south of Baja, the current reverses to counter-clockwise.
This means paddling into the current if you were coming from the North on your way to Chile.
Do we have any DNA similarities, or differences, as to the these west coast inhabitants?
Anything that may show a common or different point of origin?
It would be a much longer, and all blue water, trip from Polynesia or New Zeland to Chile, but those were people used to that kind of thing.
kbs2244
 
Posts: 2320
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:47 pm

Travel

Postby Cognito » Fri May 09, 2008 10:16 am

Do we have any DNA similarities, or differences, as to the these west coast inhabitants?
Anything that may show a common or different point of origin?
It would be a much longer, and all blue water, trip from Polynesia or New Zeland to Chile, but those were people used to that kind of thing

KB, you are looking at two separate marine points of entry - the northern route and southern Pacific. Genetic differences between pre-Columbian North and South American populations are beginning to emerge (I am referring to Andy Blackard's comments elsewhere on ancient Quechua B4 populations in Peru). In addition to boating (which was easier) I am convinced some also walked across Beringia. So you have one land route and two main sea routes.

The southern trip would have been easier with a 400 foot drop in sea level during the late Pleistocene, thereby providing more land for island hopping. Marine seafood migrations probably provided plenty to eat along the way. Some native myths refer to the islands being swallowed up after they arrived at their new homeland, a reference to the onset of the Holocene.
Natural selection favors the paranoid
User avatar
Cognito
 
Posts: 1569
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:37 am
Location: Southern California

Postby Sam Salmon » Fri May 09, 2008 12:07 pm

The Chilean island of Chiloe had some tentative Polynesian connections.

This from Wikipedia "Polynesian contact with the prehispanic Mapuche culture in central-south Chile has been suggested because of apparently similar cultural traits, including words like toki (stone axes and adzes), hands clubs similar to the Maori wahaika, the sewn-plank canoe as used on Chiloe island, the curanto earth oven (Polynesian umu) common in southern Chile, fishing techniques such as stone wall enclosures, a hockey-like game, and other potential parallels. Some strong westerlies and El Niño wind blow directly from central-east Polynesia to the Mapuche region, between Concepcion and Chiloe. A direct connection from New Zealand is possible, sailing with the "roaring forties". In 1834, some escapees from Tasmania arrived at Chiloe Island after sailing for 43 days"

If they did it in modern times with stone age technology then it was possible in days of yore.
User avatar
Sam Salmon
 
Posts: 348
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:30 am
Location: Vancouver-by-the-Sea

Pre-Columbian Trade

Postby Cognito » Fri May 09, 2008 12:18 pm

Just imagine - Pre-Columbian trade between two great empires. What a concept: :D

http://www.terradaily.com/reports/MIT_D ... s_999.html

Oceangoing boats and rafts were the norm, not the exception.
Natural selection favors the paranoid
User avatar
Cognito
 
Posts: 1569
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:37 am
Location: Southern California

Postby Minimalist » Fri May 09, 2008 2:39 pm

The voyages likely took six to eight weeks, and the trade winds only permit the voyages during certain seasons of the year, so the travelers probably stayed at their destination for six months to a year each trip



Plenty of time for DNA exchanges!
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Minimalist
 
Posts: 15443
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Pre-Columbian Trade

Postby Rokcet Scientist » Fri May 09, 2008 5:53 pm

Cognito wrote:Just imagine - Pre-Columbian trade between two great empires. What a concept: :D


The hair of one third of over 700 ancient Egyptian mummies* examined by a German professor at the University of Munich was found to be heavily contaminated with tetrahydrocannabinol (cannabis), tobacco nicotine, heroin, and cocaine. So the Egyptian upper classes were junkies! And in order to become a junkie you need a regular supply. They apparently had that! Enough to become junkies. And cocaine and tobacco come from the New World! The Americas!
So there must have been regular global trade across oceans!

*dating from 500 to 1500 BC
Rokcet Scientist
 

Postby kbs2244 » Sat May 10, 2008 12:13 pm

So not much has changed?
If you have a habit and money, someone will find a way to supply you.
A global drug trade. What a concept.
Sailors have spent over a year away from home for less lucrative things.
Across the Pacific, through Indonesia, across the Indian Ocean, up the Red Sea, over to the Nile, and to the back door of the Pharaohs palace.
Quite a trip. Literally half the world.
But with enough changing hands along the way to make it possible and profitable.
kbs2244
 
Posts: 2320
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:47 pm

Postby Rokcet Scientist » Sat May 10, 2008 12:23 pm

kbs2244 wrote:A global drug trade. What a concept.


It's nothing new, of course. We all learnt about it in school. Only, the word 'drugs' was a no-no, of course. So they used a euphemism: we were taught about the 'spice trade'... Remember that? The 'spice trade' is what made us, in western Europe, rich in the 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries! But I never understood how we could have gotten so rich off of trading mere spices. But now that you can replace 'spices' with 'drugs' – which are, after all, also spices – the dime drops and suddenly it all makes sense!
Rokcet Scientist
 

Postby Forum Monk » Sat May 10, 2008 1:22 pm

Forum Monk
 
Posts: 1999
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2006 5:37 pm
Location: USA


Return to Anthropology and Primitive Societies

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron