Cave 13b - the 164k question

The science or study of primitive societies and the nature of man.

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Postby Ishtar » Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:20 am

Digit wrote:And unfortunately, 'cos scientists can't measure the action and independenly reproduce it, it doesn't exist!


Good joke, Dig .... but no! :lol:

It cannot be scientifically proved - not that it cannot exist.

And plenty exists outside the narrow world of science. :lol:
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Postby Digit » Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:45 am

You missed the point Ish, I was expressing the scientific view, that if they cannot reproduce it under lab conditions then they argue that it does not exist.
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Postby Ishtar » Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:07 am

Oh, I see, it was a much more subtle and sophisticated joke than I could appreciate in my early morning state! :lol:

It was pearls before swine, Dig! :lol:

I do tend to buck up a bit as the day goes on, though!
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Postby Digit » Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:26 am

Although I'm arguing with you on the Darwin thread Ish I support your argument here using sciense and logic as a basis. To argue, as scientists do, that if they can't measure it etc it doesn't exist is a breakdown in logical thinking.
To go back a few years the same 'logic' would have said that because we couldn't measure the speed of light, it didn't exist, perhaps a new set of measuring tools is what is required.
Currently science is spending millions in the search for Dark Matter, using their argument they are wasting money 'cos they can't see it and can't measure it etc.
If they argue that is what they are trying to establish the same argument can just as reasonably be applied to investigation of the paranormal. it appears to wish to argue which ever way they wish to argue.
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Postby Ishtar » Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:45 am

I had a bit of fun with the 'science' behind dark matter on another forum, Dig.

Dark matter is all pervasive and the whole universe is dependent on it to stay up, but you can't see it. So who does that remind you of?

So I took the quote from Wiki about it, and then everytime it mentioned 'dark matter', I substituted the words 'the gods'.


In astrophysics and cosmology, the gods are a hypothetical form of matter of unknown composition that do not emit or reflect enough electromagnetic radiation to be observed directly, but whose presence can be inferred from gravitational effects on visible matter. According to present observations of structures larger than galaxies, as well as Big Bang cosmology, the gods account for the vast majority of mass in the observable universe.

The observed phenomena consistent with the gods observations include the rotational speeds of galaxies, orbital velocities of galaxies in clusters, gravitational lensing of background objects by galaxy clusters such as the Bullet cluster, and the temperature distribution of hot gas in galaxies and clusters of galaxies.

The gods also play a central role in structure formation and galaxy evolution, and have measurable effects on the anisotropy of the cosmic microwave background. All these lines of evidence suggest that galaxies, clusters of galaxies, and the universe as a whole contain far more matter than that which interacts with electromagnetic radiation: the remainder is called the "the gods component".


I just wanted to make the point that scientists believe that it's OK to believe in something that they believe in - but if they don't believe in it, it's religion. :lol:
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Postby Digit » Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:27 am

That basically is what I stated Ish. Then I suggested that they should look for approprate means of measuring.
When they cannot account for something the standard reaction was to call in the Inquisition, now that avenue is closed a two fold attack is used, first, rubbish it, then ignore it.
Ask any serious objector to the 'man made Co2 is killing us all' scenario, or Clovis first, the Inquisition simply wears different clothes in the 21 C.
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Postby Ishtar » Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:41 am

Too true ...the Articles of Faith sometimes between religion and science can be remarkably similar, and anyone who questions them, like you say, are rubbished and then ignored.

But at least they can't excommunicate us anymore, or burn us at the stake! So things are looking up! :lol:

Btw, the Vedics had the speed of light 5,000 years ago.
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Postby Digit » Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:01 am

Btw, the Vedics had the speed of light 5,000 years ago.

Eh? Does that mean we have their measurement of time and distance known to us or is this another 2012 ends it all based on wishful thinking?
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Postby Ishtar » Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:14 am

No...it's nothing to do with all that 2012 rubbish .... :lol:

It's in the Rig-veda. I'll try and dig something up for you on it.
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Postby Ishtar » Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:20 am

Here it is - I keep all my research at work on a memory stick. Marvellous inventions!

It's an article by Subhash Kak on how the Vedas contains the formula for the speed of light.

Imagine that archaeologists, digging a thousand year old virgin site in Antarctica, come across an inscription deep underground that shows the sun, and next to it the numbers 186,000 miles per second, the speed of light. What would the world do? More likely than not, this find will not be accepted by scholars. A fraud, they would say, committed for cheap fame. The reputation of the archaeologists will be ruined. If they didn't hold tenure, they will lose their jobs.

Only lunatics will support them, claiming that this proves that aliens have visited the earth from time to time. The high priests of the academy will say that even if the find was genuine it proves nothing; at best it is a coincidence.

But what an astonishing coincidence! Just the right number out of an infinite different numbers!

The speed of light was first determined in 1675 by Roemer who looked at the difference in the times that light from Io, one of the moons of Jupiter, takes to reach earth based on whether it is on the near side of Jupiter or the far side. Until then light was taken to travel with infinite velocity. Even Newton assumed so.

But why are we talking about the absurd scenario of the archaeologists in Antarctica? Because, we are confronted with a situation that is quite similar!

I am an archaeologist of texts. I read old texts from the point of view of history of science. One such book is the celebrated commentary on the Rigveda by Sayana (c. 1315-1387), a minister in the court of King
Bukka I of the Vijayanagar Empire in South India.

In a hymn addressed to the sun, he says that it is ``remembered that the sun traverses 2,202 yojanas in half a nimesha.''

This statement could either relate to the speed of the sun or to that of light. The units are well known. For example, the Indian epic "Mahabharata", conservatively dated to 400 BC - 400 AD, defines 1 nimesha to be equal to 16/75.3 seconds; 1 yojana is about 9 miles.

Substituting in Sayana's statement we get 186,536 miles per second.

Unbelievable, you'd say! It cannot be the speed of light. Maybe it refers to the speed of the sun in its supposed orbit around the earth.

But that places the orbit of the sun at a distance of over 2,550 million miles. The correct value is only 93 million miles and until the time of Roemer the distance to the sun used to be taken to be less than 4 million miles. This interpretation takes us nowhere.

What about the possibility of fraud? Sayana's statement was printed in 1890 in the famous edition of Rigveda edited by Max Muller, the German Sanskritist. He claimed to have used several three or four hundred year old manuscripts of Sayana's commentary, written much before the time of Roemer.

Is it possible that Muller was duped by an Indian correspondent who slipped in the line about the speed? Unlikely, because Sayana's commentary is so well known that an interpolation would have been long discovered. And soon after Muller's "Rigveda" was published, someone would have claimed that it contained this
particular "secret" knowledge. The fact that the speed in the text corresponds to the speed of light was pointed out only recently by S.S. De and P.V. Vartak. Also a copy of Sayana's manuscript, dated 1395 AD, is available.

Further support for the genuineness of the figure in the ancient book comes from another old book, the Vayu Purana. This is one of the earliest Puranas, considered to be at least 1,500 years old. (The same reference is to be found in the other Puranas as well.)

In Chapter 50 of this book, there is the statement that the sun moves 3.15 million yojanas in 48 minutes. This corresponds to about 10,000 miles per second if considered as speed of light, and 135 million miles
for the distance to the sun, if considered as the speed of the sun.

Sayana's speed of light is exactly 18 times greater than this speed of the sun! Mere numerology?

For the rationalists these numbers are a coincidence. Given the significance of these numbers, they'd look very carefully at the old manuscripts of Sayana's commentary.

There are others who would say that consciousness, acting on itself can find universal knowledge. Look, they'd say, by examining biological cycles one can know the periods of the sun and the moon. So why
shouldn't it be possible to know other universal truths?

They'd add that ancient texts speak -- and this is true -- of embryo transplants, multiple births from the same fetus, air and space travel, slowing or speeding of time, weapons that can destroy the entire world.

They'd say that it is more than ancient science fiction, it shows that the human imagination can envision all that can happen.

This brings us back to the question of whether the figure of 186,000 miles per second in Sayana's book is a astonishing coincidence, an example of the powers of intuition, or a meaningless number.

What do you think?
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Postby Digit » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:41 am

I have no fault with the maths Ish but this is nonsense.

For example, the Indian epic "Mahabharata", conservatively dated to 400 BC - 400 AD, defines 1 nimesha to be equal to 16/75.3 seconds; 1 yojana is about 9 miles.


For that to be true somebody at that time, 400 BC or AD, would have to have been familiar with Seconds of time and Miles as a measurement of distance.
How were these figure arrived at?
There is no easy way of converting unknown measurements to a known equivalent unless you have some common standard.
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Postby Minimalist » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:45 am

Hancock has dealt with these math anomalies. They show up in Maya culture as well as India.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Postby Digit » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:53 am

Like being presented with E=MC2 without being told what M and C represent, without that info it's useless.
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Postby Ishtar » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:50 am

I can't answer you yet on the distance measurements, but Kak can be sure that one nimesha equals 16/75.3 seconds because this is how it is described in the Srimad Bhagavatham book 3, chapter 11, (written at roughly the same time, but slightly earlier than the Mahabharatha):

You will see there is a common standard in that day and night are each measured at 12 hours, and so you can work it all back from that to check it.

This is a direct translation from the SB, and between each verse there is a commentary by Sri AC Bhaktivedanta which was written in the late 20th century.

TRANSLATION
The division of gross time is calculated as follows: two atoms make one double atom, and three double atoms make one hexatom. This hexatom is visible in the sunshine which enters through the holes of a window screen. One can clearly see that the hexatom goes up towards the sky.

PURPORT
The atom is described as an invisible particle, but when six such atoms combine together, they are called a trasareëu, and this is visible in the sunshine pouring through the holes of a window screen.

TRANSLATION
The time duration needed for the integration of three trasareëus is called a truöi, and one hundred truöis make one vedha. Three vedhas make one lava.

PURPORT
It is calculated that if a second is divided into 1687.5 parts, each part is the duration of a truöi, which is the time occupied in the integration of eighteen atomic particles. Such a combination of atoms into different bodies creates the calculation of material time. The sun is the central point for calculating all different durations.
SB 3.11.7

TRANSLATION
The duration of time of three lavas is equal to one nimesha, the combination of three nimeshas makes one kñaëa, five kñaëas combined together make one käñöhä, and fifteen käñöhäs make one laghu.

PURPORT
By calculation it is found that one laghu is equal to two minutes. The atomic calculation of time in terms of Vedic wisdom may be converted into present time with this understanding.

TRANSLATION
Fifteen laghus make one näòikä, which is also called a daëòa. Two daëòas make one muhürta, and six or seven daëòas make one fourth of a day or night, according to human calculation.
SB 3.11.9

The measuring pot for one nädikä, or danda, can be prepared with a six-pala-weight [fourteen ounce] pot of copper, in which a hole is bored with a gold probe weighing four mäña and measuring four fingers long. When the pot is placed on water, the time before the water overflows in the pot is called one danda.

PURPORT
It is advised herein that the bore in the copper measuring pot must be made with a probe weighing not more than four mäña and measuring not longer than four fingers. This regulates the diameter of the hole. The pot is submerged in water, and the overflooding time is called a danda. This is another way of measuring the duration of a danda, just as time is measured by sand in a glass. It appears that in the days of Vedic civilization there was no dearth of knowledge in physics, chemistry or higher mathematics. Measurements were calculated in different ways, as simply as could be done.

TRANSLATION
It is calculated that there are four praharas, which are also called yämas, in the day and four in the night of the human being. Similarly, fifteen days and nights are a fortnight, and there are two fortnights, white and black, in a month.
SB 3.11.11

TRANSLATION
The aggregate of two fortnights is one month, and that period is one complete day and night for the Pitä planets. Two of such months comprise one season, and six months comprise one complete movement of the sun from south to north.

TRANSLATION
Two solar movements make one day and night of the demigods, and that combination of day and night is one complete calendar year for the human being. The human being has a duration of life of one hundred years.
SB 3.11.13

TRANSLATION
There are five different names for the orbits of the sun, moon, stars and luminaries in the firmament, and they each have their own saàvatsara.

PURPORT
The subject matters of physics, chemistry, mathematics, astronomy, time and space dealt with in the above verses of Srimad-Bhägavatam are certainly very interesting to students of the particular subject, but as far as we are concerned, we cannot explain them very thoroughly in terms of technical knowledge. The subject is summarized by the statement that above all the different branches of knowledge is the supreme control of käla, the plenary representation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Nothing exists without Him, and therefore everything, however wonderful it may appear to our meager knowledge, is but the work of the magical wand of the Supreme Lord. As far as time is concerned, we beg to subjoin herewith a table of timings in terms of the modern clock.

One truöi - 8/13,500 second
One vedha - 8/135 second
One lava - 8/45 second
One nimesha - 8/15 second
One kñaëa - 8/5 second
One käñöhä - 8 seconds
One laghu - 2 minute
One danda - 30 minutes
One prahara - 3 hours
One day - 12 hours
One night - 12 hours
One pakña - 15 days

Two pakñas comprise one month, and twelve months comprise one calendar year, or one full orbit of the sun. A human being is expected to live up to one hundred years. That is the way of the controlling measure of eternal time.
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Postby Digit » Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:21 am

Pass!
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