Roman DNA

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Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Tue May 01, 2018 2:08 pm

simon wrote:as far as I am aware we do not have a single Pictish document.


Actually, we have over a thousand Pict documents.
The problem is that they are written in a glyph system which we can't read (yet).

simon wrote:In fact the Picts disappear from history altogether in the mid middle ages.


While there a few written records, it is certain that they did not disappear entirely from the face of the Earth.
Recovering their sub-roman history from the scattered sources will provide valuable glosses for those glyph inscriptions.

simon wrote: I would be very reluctant to trust local experts. One of the first things you learn about British place names is not to trust the locals. Most British river names are unknown though it is presumed they often mean flowing, dark etc.


Well, you have to be selective in your choices of local experts.
Two good ones for this area were set out in my posts above - that university fellow working on Columba,
and the local battle historian mentioned immediately above.

I always trust locals when they want to tell me about sites.
There are other "experts" who you just try to be polite to.

simon wrote:What other monuments and inscriptions might be unearthed?


One can not know without looking.
I looked for robbed stones while I was in the field there.
I did not find any,
but I do have that box of "geological specimens" to put in the mail.

I wish I could give you a better citation to it, but perhaps you would enjoy trying to recover the Anglo-Saxon text that underlaid that hideous
translation into Welsh which produced the Prophatio Merlini.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Tue May 01, 2018 3:13 pm

Well, you have to be selective in your choices of local experts.
Two good ones for this area were set out in my posts above - that university fellow working on Columba,
and the local battle historian mentioned immediately above.

I always trust locals when they want to tell me about sites.
There are other "experts" who you just try to be polite to.


Not with place names. This has been the subject of intensive study. Birling in After Rome (an excellent book) points out that the ingas ending which means people of - as in Birmingham (home of Beorm's people), Hastings, the people of Hasta, were not the first AS place names as was once beleived, but a later development pointing to a more feudal, leader centric development. This change has been relatively recent. Prior most people beleived that these were name of invasion war leaders. I include this to show how inhvolved and complicated this area is.
On the other hand, it is pretty clear that the Picts used a highly refined symbolic system of glyphs,
a glyph system which is poorly documented, poorly preserved, with not all their inscribed stones having been found yet,
and with many of those found lying in pieces, with pieces of them not retrieved, and their "inscriptions" not yet restored.


Not sure on this, they used Ogham but apprently incomprehensibly. Some claim the images might be some form of writing but i\am not certain that has been proved beyond all doubt and in any case we do not even know what the Picts spoke.

The Picts, like the Attacotti do fade from history from the early to mid middle ages - they do not occur in St Patrick's Confessio or letter, the Life of St Germanus, the Gallic chronicle. Gildas does of course, but in association with the Scots.
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Wed May 02, 2018 5:59 am

Hi simon -

simon wrote:...we do not even know what the Picts spoke.


Well, at least I know.the answer to that question. They spoke PIct.

I want to share with you a little background. When I moved to Illinois, the Newberry Library, the world's best collections of Native American materials, and the Oriental Institute, one of the world's best collections of Ancient Near Eastern materials, were within an easy drive. Since my stroke I am unable to deal with Chicago traffic. Oh well. A good part of my brain for working with those materials is gone as well.

Right now, I do nor even have a copy of the Anderson's translation of the Life of Columba at hand.

Now where does PIct lie in the grand scheme of things? Lycian studies have been dominated by German scholars for years, and they have declared Lycian to be Proto-Indo-European. But based on their comprehensability by Indo-European speakers, perhaps Pict may be far more usefully be grouped with Etruscan, Lycian, and "Minoan", to form a PRE-Indo-European substrate. An east way to avoid the heated PROTO/PRE debate, and have more time for actual analysis, is to use the term PIE, with the individual reading that as they wish.

I expect that modern genetic studies on remains will confirm this. These people were not neanderthal, but the very first wave of sapiens.

moving on -

simon wrote:Some claim the images might be some form of writing but I am not certain that has been proved beyond all doubt


( I see you have trouble with your typing too, but not as bad as I do nowadays.)

A recent computer analysis has claimed exactly that, that the images are a form of writing.
I agree with their conclusion, but not based on much more than the fact that the same images are used regularly,
and from the effort invested in them, the stones clearly had meaning.
I do not know what database that group used, but I am far more interested in Luwian Hieroglyphic.

What I do know is that the folks up north are irritated with all of that oil money going south -
and that this is reflected in the archaeological work as well.
Going through the online resources, we find pleas for funding for Pict glyph studies, including the construction of a really good database.
Then there is the little problem of preserving the inscriptions themselves.

Frankly, I expected far better in the UK, with that lottery money, and their academic rigor.
Of course you have the rescue archaeology needs down south, but all the same...

simon wrote:Not sure on this, they used Ogham but apparently incomprehensibly.


So instead of easy glosses for the glyphs,
we end up with another challenge for analysis. Oh Joy.

simon wrote:The Picts, like the Attacotti do fade from history from the early to mid middle ages -
they do not occur in St Patrick's Confessio or letter, the Life of St Germanus, the Gallic chronicle.
Gildas does of course, but in association with the Scots.


When someone mentions St. Patrick, I always think of "Cabin Boy" and his Confessio.

Native American peoples would often leave out of their histories their defeats in wars.
The colonists would usually leave out of their histories who they stole the land from.
Then you have the destruction of records, and of the oral history keepers themselves.

But we're a long way from historioraphical studies, or imperial political studies here.
We're at the level of field work,
and I think their is a major metal workshop yet to be found.

With the portable antiquities scheme in place,
I am actually hoping that the metal detectorists will spend some time in the Girvan-Ayr area.

This is a very important breakthrough for the analysis of the gold artifacts of the Staffordshier hoard:
https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot ... FHi4DaY.97

Indeed - Laser Ablation analysis for gold artifacts from anywhere, including say Sutton Hoo.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Wed May 02, 2018 4:25 pm

Well, at least I know.the answer to that question. They spoke PIct.


Which could have been just another form of Brittonic.

I want to share with you a little background. When I moved to Illinois, the Newberry Library, the world's best collections of Native American materials, and the Oriental Institute, one of the world's best collections of Ancient Near Eastern materials, were within an easy drive. Since my stroke I am unable to deal with Chicago traffic. Oh well. A good part of my brain for working with those materials is gone as well.

Right now, I do nor even have a copy of the Anderson's translation of the Life of Columba at hand.


The life of Columba does mention the Saint needing a translator, but that might be a reflection of the difficulties the Saint had in comprehension, it does not mean the Picts spoke a unique language.

Now where does PIct lie in the grand scheme of things? Lycian studies have been dominated by German scholars for years, and they have declared Lycian to be Proto-Indo-European. But based on their comprehensability by Indo-European speakers, perhaps Pict may be far more usefully be grouped with Etruscan, Lycian, and "Minoan", to form a PRE-Indo-European substrate. An east way to avoid the heated PROTO/PRE debate, and have more time for actual analysis, is to use the term PIE, with the individual reading that as they wish.


I do not understand this. The Picts lived in Northern Britain, there is no reason to think they had more in common linguistically with the Minoans then with the peoples who lived near to them, traded with them, intermarried with them.

I expect that modern genetic studies on remains will confirm this. These people were not neanderthal, but the very first wave of sapiens.


Can't see any reason for this. There is nothing from the Pictisihy stones which seems to indicate they wer neanderthal, and none of the4 sources mention anything about their different appearance.

It is probable, as many are coming to think they were just another Brittonic trible grouping. Bede got things wrong - Hengist and Horsa (Stallion and Mare?)

It is striking for example that apart from the stones there is virtually no "pictish" archaeology or artifacts.

m
oving on -

( I see you have trouble with your typing too, but not as bad as I do nowadays.)

A recent computer analysis has claimed exactly that, that the images are a form of writing.
I agree with their conclusion, but not based on much more than the fact that the same images are used regularly,
and from the effort invested in them, the stones clearly had meaning.
I do not know what database that group used, but I am far more interested in Luwian Hieroglyphic.


I have poor eyesight. The stones probably have meaning but that is not the same as saying they are a written script as is commonly understood. The fact Ogham was used is again striking as clearly this was borrowed from the Irish, and why borrow if you already have a functioning script? I read the article but remain sceptical. The Wandjina have "meaning, the blown handprints have meaning, but they are not writing.

What I do know is that the folks up north are irritated with all of that oil money going south -
and that this is reflected in the archaeological work as well.
Going through the online resources, we find pleas for funding for Pict glyph studies, including the construction of a really good database.
Then there is the little problem of preserving the inscriptions themselves.


Well that is true in all cases. I would like to see more work in the Goddodin - a proper survey. It is the only scottish kingdom which has a poem which is supposed to be near contemporary but apart from the King ( Mynyddog) and the facts that his soldiers whitewashed their shields and rode horses (to no effect) we still know practically nothing. And who was Cunedda and why did he go to North Wales of all places on God's earth?


When someone mentions St. Patrick, I always think of "Cabin Boy" and his Confessio.


St Patrick key to this period as he is the only contemporary source. Recently it has been claimed that his "great sin" might have been slave trading - no wonder the Irish exploded.

With the portable antiquities scheme in place,
I am actually hoping that the metal detectorists will spend some time in the Girvan-Ayr area.

This is a very important breakthrough for the analysis of the gold artifacts of the Staffordshier hoard:
https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot ... FHi4DaY.97

Indeed - Laser Ablation analysis for gold artifacts from anywhere, including say Sutton Hoo.[/quote]
Simon21
 
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Wed May 02, 2018 6:14 pm


Hi simon -

Let me know if this bigger font helps.
I am very excited about this new spanish technology. It may become second only to 14C.
Here in the eastern states it will be used to sort out native copper sources.
Highest priority for the UK is the Edinburgh torcs.
With nanometer size samples, one could actually sample the gems used for inlays..
and of course foreign pottery sources becomes a snap.
very exciting...

simon wrote:(PIct) Which could have been just another form of Brittonic.
The life of Columba does mention the Saint needing a translator,
but that might be a reflection of the difficulties the Saint had in comprehension,
it does not mean the Picts spoke a unique language.


It is that comprehensibilty issue that I think is the key here in the PIE discussion.

simon wrote:I do not understand this.
The Picts lived in Northern Britain, there is no reason to think they had more in common linguistically with the Minoans
than with the peoples who lived near to them, traded with them, intermarried with them.


Compare Persian with their neighbor languages.
I expect that modern genetic studies on human remains will confirm this.
These people were not neanderthal, but the very first wave of sapiens.

simon wrote:Can't see any reason for this.
There is nothing from the Pict stones which seems to indicate they were neanderthal,
and none of the sources mention anything about their different appearance.


I did not claim that the Picts were Neanderthal.
Sapiens and Neanderthals were different.
I think that what is sometimes seen as Neanderthal in modern Irish populations
is actually western sapiens.

simon wrote:It is probable, as many are coming to think they were just another Brittonic tribal grouping.
Bede got things wrong - Hengist and Horsa (Stallion and Mare?)


The Cotton Library fire was a great loss.
If those materials had of survived, this would likely all be sorted out long ago, and in great depth.

simon wrote:It is striking for example that apart from the stones there is virtually no "pictish" archaeology or artifacts.


Funding bias.

simon wrote:The stones probably have meaning but that is not the same as saying they are a written script as is commonly understood.
The fact Ogham was used is again striking as clearly this was borrowed from the Irish, and why borrow if you already have a functioning script?
I read the article but remain sceptical.
The Wandjina have "meaning, the blown handprints have meaning, but they are not writing.


While the Pict glyphs are likely not phonetic,
I suspect that the glyphs probably have a reading order,
and the glyphs' meanings were very tightly constrained.

simon wrote:I would like to see more work in the Goddodin - a proper survey.
It is the only Scottish kingdom which has a poem which is supposed to be near contemporary.
But apart from the King ( Mynyddog) and the facts that his soldiers whitewashed their shields and rode horses (to no effect)
we still know practically nothing.
And who was Cunedda and why did he go to North Wales of all places on God's earth?


I can't comment on all of the texts.
A whole lot of work has been done in the last decades on the Welsh materials,
and I am by no means current on it.

Funding?
Well, it is clear that the PIct stones database has a very high priority.
I think Rheged in SW Scotland also has a very high priority.
Aside from that, there is that data vacuum in the Girvan-Ayr area.
Lacking pubic funding, I don't mind turning to the private sector, Adam Smith, and enlightened self interest.
Metal detector surveys have a place in archaeology.

simon wrote:St Patrick key to this period as he is the only contemporary source.
Recently it has been claimed that his "great sin" might have been slave trading - no wonder the Irish exploded.


I'll disagree with you on the importance of Patrick studies.
The key is going to be the earlier Roman foderati and mercenaries -
sort that out, and that wll provide some basis for text analysis.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Wed May 02, 2018 7:10 pm

Image

Located here:

Image


This unusual form of Christianity is interesting.
Thor's hammer with Christ on one side?
and a cross with coptic interlace on the other,
along with some beasties,
and what may be a couple of letters at the bottom.

Senchus's analysis here:
https://senchus.wordpress.com/

"On one side, the hammerhead cross carries a rough representation of the Crucified Christ. Another figure stands below, flanked by two birds, a set of blacksmith’s tongs and an unidentified rectangular shape. It has been suggested that this lower figure is the Scandinavian hero Sigurd, juxtaposed with the Crucifixion to highlight the mingling of pagan and Christian beliefs in a region colonised by Vikings. On the other side of the slab, the hammerhead cross is decorated with spiral patterns, below which are two horns, a coiled serpent and a panel of interlace terminating in a pair of snakes.’

I really have to watch out for projection here, but if those are "blacksmith's tongs", perhaps the first rectangle above them is a stone mold, and the rectangle above that a book -the bible.

Where o where is that metal working site?
Find that, find the molds, and then make as much "Anglo-Saxon" bling as you want.

Image

The cross on this guy's tunic from the borderlands reminds me of the dress shown in the Lullingstone murals.

Image

Perhaps he was floating in the air as well.

Senchus reported that
"The Whithorn Trust has a funding shortfall of £18,500 and will be forced to shut down this summer.
If this happens, its museum and visitor centre will also close. The news was announced yesterday..."

No wonder the locals are irritated.

E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Thu May 10, 2018 5:11 pm

Funding bias.


With the SNP? Not likely Scottish archaeology has not been particularly neglected. Lack of evidence is not evidence

The Goddodin was in the Edinburgh area


I'll disagree with you on the importance of Patrick studies.


He is the only contemporary, the only and his confessio and letter to Coroticus are pivotal to studies of this period. He mentions a functioning church and a functioning society - his father was a "decurion" his grandfather a priest - proving priests of tis period were not celibate and that town magistrates still existed.

Foederati are not Romans they are those bound by a foedas
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sun May 13, 2018 5:33 am



Good to hear from you, Simon
Let me know if this type size is good for your eyes.

I'm still on my "vacation" from Native American materials
while I am working with the printer on the setup of my new guidebook to
another part of the Native American remains in Ohio.

simon wrote:Not likely Scottish archaeology has not been particularly neglected. Lack of evidence is not evidence


Somehow the locals have over 1,000 Pict stelae, and no database of them, no organized preservation effort.
What is the explanation for that? Funding bias?
But it is important that as near as I could make out,
most of the local scholars for SW Scotland died in the trenches of World War I.

simon wrote:{Patrick)is the only contemporary, the only and his Confessio and Letter to Coroticus are pivotal to studies of this period.
He mentions a functioning church and a functioning society -
his father was a "decurion" his grandfather a priest -
proving priests of this period were not celibate and that town magistrates still existed.


Well, we can agree entirely that Patrick is important to the Irish.
But that line of attack appears to have been exhausted.

Adomnan's Life of Columba is what remains of a another contemporary text,
and it has far more links to the other surviving documents from that time.
So go into the period through that text,
and then try to place the Patrician materials into the resulting framework.
On the imperial scale, try to place Columba into the surviving Pelagian materials.

It occurred to me the other day that with their trade with Gaul,
the early Christians were likely one of the sole sources for opium during these times,
so necessary for the treatment of medical pain.
They also were literate, and likely provided other medical services to the people living in these areas.
Some of this should be showing up somewhere in the archaeological record.

E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sun May 13, 2018 9:59 am

Nice find:

Image

https://youtu.be/-xVwwmRA2n4

https://youtu.be/bNniWgxqTAs

6 more videos here:

https://youtu.be/tTTorLTHdzo

A melting pot was found at Trapain Law, now where are the molds?

IN any case, I think that it was likely that the Cruits would have had their own workshop,
alongside that of the Venturiones or Gododdin.

And the local metal working sites have yet to be found.

This exhibit is a nice start.
There are still the hoards of plunder by the maritime raiders to be worked through,
and then the whole problem of the gold artifacts,
including the magnificent "Anglo Saxon" gold artifacts.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Roman DNA

Postby kbs2244 » Sun May 13, 2018 2:13 pm

BTW E,P.

I like the font.
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Mon May 14, 2018 8:08 am

Image
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Roman DNA

Postby kbs2244 » Mon May 14, 2018 3:59 pm

WHOA !!
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Mon May 14, 2018 4:42 pm

Thanks the font is clear

Regrettably Adomnan's acct of St Columbass is not in the order of importance as Patrick's Confessio and Letter to Coroticus. They are earlier and are of pivotal importance. He is the only Roman Briton to tell us of his life.

He was not Irish. Hence his importance. His father was a decurion. Who appointed him? How did he collect the taxes? He wandered in the wilderness for 28 days after escaping from Ireland not seeing another human. Where can this have been? Gaul? Does it reflect the devastation of the post Roman period? He refers to the Franks being pagans.

Sorry but to suggest Scotland has no scholars since WW1 is insulting and prejudicial. Scotland has some fine archaeologists at least as good as Ohio. Who these locals are one cannot comment but if they are interfering with Pictish monuments they are breaking the law.

Read what Patrick says and what Pelagian materials? Patrick and Gildas nd Adomnan are not Pelagians. This is very important.

Why on earth would you think only Christians traded with Gaul. Have you not heard of Sutton Hoo?
Last edited by Simon21 on Tue May 15, 2018 4:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Mon May 14, 2018 4:48 pm

Not sure what is meant by "problem" with Anglo saxo n gold artifacts. There is no problem. Analysis has been done. It is thought gold coins are the main source.

Britain is a very small place. There are no lost goldmines here. There is no Lassiter's lost reef or secret Maori gold strikes.

If you are intersted in that sort of thing I have been told there is a gold reef in Fiordland which gets covered at high tide. The person who told me came from the South Island and his grandfather had rescued the explorer who found it, sadly he died before revealing much more.
Last edited by Simon21 on Tue May 15, 2018 4:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Tue May 15, 2018 4:25 am

This exhibit is a nice start.
There are still the hoards of plunder by the maritime raiders to be worked through,
and then the whole problem of the gold artifacts,
including the magnificent "Anglo Saxon" gold artifacts.


Not quite correct. It is thought that some of these objects are not plunder but tribute or payment. They were not made in Scotland, they are hack silver brought from some where else. They could be the pay of returning mercenaries, payment to keep the frontier quiet. This was standard throughout the Empire.
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