Roman DNA

The Old World is a reference to those parts of Earth known to Europeans before the voyages of Christopher Columbus; it includes Europe, Asia and Africa.

Moderators: Minimalist, MichelleH

Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:49 pm



Simon21 wrote:One cannot debate anything with someone who patently makes things up


I am not the one blathering on about imaginary Anglo Saxon jewelry workshops,
of which not one shred of evidence has ever been found.
No molds, no furnaces, no anvils, no crucibles, no dies, nothing.

I'm the fellow with some "geological specimens" to put in the mail.
There is also an amusing story about the Rio Tinto company,
but I am sure that you won't mind if I don't share it.

Now as we have multiple contemporary records attesting to Anglo Saxon raids,
it would seem reasonable to expect plunder to have been taken in those raids,
and that plunder to show up in both grave goods and lost hoards.

Simon21 wrote:Instead of discussing the process of aculturalisation, something which effects us all, and around which there are many conflicting views,
one is confronted with wild notions of metorites causing the Catholic conversion of Southern Britain - surely it is time for this nonsense to be excised.


The aculturalisation problem is
"How did a pack of lying, murdering, child raping thieves become civilized?"

Well, they told us, but the problem is that they told us in Latin, simon.
And simon, your Latin is really really poor, as apparently you can not handle two words,
a relational, and a conjunction:
"terroresque de coelo,"

which undoubtedly refers to the same event mentioned here:

De romani juris civitate igni sulfureo coelitus prolapso combusta sancti viri prophetia

ALIO itidem in tempore, Lugbeus gente Mocumin, cujus supra mentionem fecimus, quadam ad Sanctum die post frugum veniens triturationem, nullo modo ejus faciem intueri potuit, miro superfusam rubore; valdeque pertimescens cito aufugit. Quem Sanctus complosis paulum manibus revocat. Qui reversus, a Sancto statim interrogatus cur ocius aufugisset, hoc dedit responsum, ‘Ideo fugi quia nimis pertimui.’ Et post aliquod modicum intervallum, fiducialius agens, audet Sanctum interrogare, inquiens, ‘Numquid hac in hora tibi aliqua formidabilis ostensa visio est?’ Cui Sanctus talem dedit responsionem: ‘Tam terrifica ultio nunc in remota orbis parte peracta est.’ ‘Qualis,’ ait juvenis, ‘vindicta, et in qua regione facta?’ Sanctus tum sic profatur: ‘Sulfurea de coelo flamma super Romani juris civitatem, intra Italiae terminos sitam, hac hora effusa est; triaque ferme millia virorum, excepto matrum puerorumque numero disperierunt.’ Et antequam praesens finiatur annus, Gallici nautae, de Galliarum provinciis adventantes, haec eadem tibi enarrabunt. Quae verba post aliquot menses veridica fuisse sunt comprobata. Nam idem Lugbeus, simul cum sancto viro ad Caput Regionis pergens, nauclerum et nautas adventantis barcae interrogans, sic omnia illa de civitate cum civibus ab eis audit enarrata, quemadmodum a praedicabili viro sunt praedicta.

which appears to be the same event mentioned in the Historia Franconum.
But as those passages are also in Latin, simon, it appears that we face the same problem yet once again .

Simon, it seems reasonable to conclude you will simply be bound to wander on for the rest of your life
dealing with your "mysteries" of history,
unless and until such time as you learn to read Latin, whenever that occurs, if ever.

But since they say G*d works in mysterious ways,
perhaps we should not give up hope yet.
One would think that If He can use an asteroid impact to turn
a pack of lying, murdering, child raping, thieves into a civilized people,
then He might be able to teach you to read Latin.

Simon21 wrote:One thing is certain Bazas was not destroyed by aliens or meteors there is no evidence whatsoever for this.


I see your inability to understand Latin extends to an inability to read French,
otherwise you would be able to read the results of that Bazas archaeological survey I pointed you to.

One might hope that you would work on learning French as well, simon, right after Latin.

But then perhaps we should not ask too much of G*d.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:59 am

I am not the one blathering on about imaginary Anglo Saxon jewelry workshops,
of which not one shred of evidence has ever been found.
No molds, no furnaces, no anvils, no crucibles, no dies, nothing.


From which you crankishly conclude that all Anglo Saxon metalwork for 500 years was made in Scotland based on no evidence at all written or achaeological

This is what I mean by trying to explain something to someone with little education and no undertstanding of archaeology

But lets try again

https://blog.britishmuseum.org/decoding ... saxon-art/


I'm the fellow with some "geological specimens" to put in the mail.
There is also an amusing story about the Rio Tinto company,
but I am sure that you won't mind if I don't share it.


Rambling incoherenece again. Who cares if you like playing withs stones and endlessly repeating the same thing?

Now as we have multiple contemporary records attesting to Anglo Saxon raids,
it would seem reasonable to expect plunder to have been taken in those raids,
and that plunder to show up in both grave goods and lost hoards.



We have more references to the predations of the Picts and Scots though don't we. Gildas called them worms and blamed them for ferocious raids. Patrick called them slave owning apostates.


The aculturalisation problem is
"How did a pack of lying, murdering, child raping thieves become civilized?"



Oh dear! But the white colonists said that about the Shawnee and native Americans didn't they? Usually before massacring them or driving them off their lands. You beleive this sort of thing? Going by your logic (claiming to be a Shawnere) do you have an inclinatiion for this sort of thing? :lol:

Michelle it is very difficult to courteously debate with someone who cannot understand the issues or even basic history, is abusive and simply repeats the same thing. Surely it is time they were removed for the health of the board. I



Well, they told us, but the problem is that they told us in Latin, simon.
And simon, your Latin is really really poor, as apparently you can not handle two words,
a relational, and a conjunction:
"terroresque de coelo,"


The fact you are too lazy to learn the language just shows what a fraud you are.


ALIO itidem in tempore, Lugbeus gente Mocumin, cujus supra mentionem fecimus, quadam ad Sanctum die post frugum veniens triturationem, nullo modo ejus faciem intueri potuit, miro superfusam rubore; valdeque pertimescens cito aufugit. Quem Sanctus complosis paulum manibus revocat. Qui reversus, a Sancto statim interrogatus cur ocius aufugisset, hoc dedit responsum, ‘Ideo fugi quia nimis pertimui.’ Et post aliquod modicum intervallum, fiducialius agens, audet Sanctum interrogare, inquiens, ‘Numquid hac in hora tibi aliqua formidabilis ostensa visio est?’ Cui Sanctus talem dedit responsionem: ‘Tam terrifica ultio nunc in remota orbis parte peracta est.’ ‘Qualis,’ ait juvenis, ‘vindicta, et in qua regione facta?’ Sanctus tum sic profatur: ‘Sulfurea de coelo flamma super Romani juris civitatem, intra Italiae terminos sitam, hac hora effusa est; triaque ferme millia virorum, excepto matrum puerorumque numero disperierunt.’ Et antequam praesens finiatur annus, Gallici nautae, de Galliarum provinciis adventantes, haec eadem tibi enarrabunt. Quae verba post aliquot menses veridica fuisse sunt comprobata. Nam idem Lugbeus, simul cum sancto viro ad Caput Regionis pergens, nauclerum et nautas adventantis barcae interrogans, sic omnia illa de civitate cum civibus ab eis audit enarrata, quemadmodum a praedicabili viro sunt praedicta.



You can beleive in witchcraft and prophecies - simply cutting and pasting without reading first makes you an complete fool. This is a supposed prophecy, holy magic in other words.

This is what I mean about the necesssity of getting you off the boards and encouraging people who want to know or do know something about he subject on.


which appears to be the same event mentioned in the Historia Franconum.
But as those passages are also in Latin, simon, it appears that we face the same problem yet once again .


Considering you know nothing about the subject your opinion is completely valueless, like your weird views on the holocaust. A magic prophecy has nothing to do with Gregury of Tours.


Simon, it seems reasonable to conclude you will simply be bound to wander on for the rest of your life
dealing with your "mysteries" of history,


Well I am sure G@d has revealed everything to you. Despite your foul tongue and lack of basic christian knowledge. A friendly warning, when yu go before the great judge don't misquote Christ. We are told he doesn't like that sort of thing.


unless and until such time as you learn to read Latin, whenever that occurs, if ever.

But since they say G*d works in mysterious ways,
perhaps we should not give up hope yet.
One would think that If He can use an asteroid impact to turn
a pack of lying, murdering, child raping, thieves into a civilized people,
then He might be able to teach you to read Latin.



Yes he certainly does, you are evidence of that. I can read Latin whether you accept it or not. You cannot and all your hysterical vapourings prove is that you need to leave the board

I see your inability to understand Latin extends to an inability to read French,
otherwise you would be able to read the results of that Bazas archaeological survey I pointed you to.

One might hope that you would work on learning French as well, simon, right after Latin.

But then perhaps we should not ask too much of G*d.


More tedious lies - you pointed to no survey, as there has been no survey with such a purpose, it would be laughed out of court. When you stop lying then you might actually learn something. Meanwhile play with your little stones.

Come on Michelle we should clean this mess up.
Simon21
 
Posts: 490
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:40 am

Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:51 am



simon wrote:I can read Latin whether you accept it or not.


Well, you have not shown that you can read Latin in any of your posts yet.
But I suppose it won't hurt anyone to give you another couple of chances:

V 33. De prodigiis.

Anno quinto Childeberthi regis Arvernorum regionem diluvia magna praessirunt, ita ut per dies 12 non cessaret a pluvia, tantaque inundatione Limane est infusum, ut multos, ne simentem iacerent, prohiberet. Flumina quoque Leger Flavarisque, quem Elacrem vocitant, vel reliqui torrentes decurrentes in eum ita intumuerunt, ut terminus, quos numquam excesserant, praeterirent. Quae grande de pecoribus excidium, de culturis detrimentum, de aedificiis fecere naufragium. Pari modo Rhodanus cum Arare coniunctus, ripas excidens, grave damnum populis intulit, murus Lugdunensis civitatis aliqua ex parte subvertit. Quiescentibus vero pluviis, arbores denuo floruerunt; erat enim mensis Septembris. In Toronico vero eo anno mane, priusquam dies inlucescerit, fulgor per caelum cucurrisse visus est et ad orientis plagam caecidisse. Sed et sonitus tamquam diruentes arbores per totam terram illam auditus est; quod ideo non est de arbore aestimandum, quia in quinquaginta aut amplius milia est auditum. Ipso anno graviter urbis Burdegalensis a terrae motu concussa est, moeniaque civitatis in discrimine eversionis extetirunt; atque ita omnes populus metu mortis exterritus est, ut, si non fugiret, potaret se cum urbe dehiscere. Unde et multi ad civitatis alias transierunt. Qui tremor ad vicinas civitatis porrectus est et usque Spaniam attigit, sed non tam valide. Tamen de Pirineis montibus inmense lapides sunt commoti, qui pecora hominisque prostraverunt. Nam et vicus Burdegalensis incendium divinitus ortum exussit, ita ut subito conpraehensi igni tam domus quam areae cum annonis incendio cremarentur, nullum paenitus incitamentum habens ignis alieni, forsitan iussione divina. Nam et Aurilianensis civitas grave incendio conflagravit, in tantum ut ditioribus nihil paenitus remaneret; et si aliquis ab igne quicquam eripuit, ab insistentibus furibus est dereptum. Apud terminum Carnotenum verus de effracto pane sangues effluxit. Graviter tunc et Beturica civitas a grandine verberata est.


VI 21. De signis ostensis.

Haec in hoc anno iteratis signa apparuerunt: luna eclypsim passa est; infra Toronicum territurium verus de fracto pane sanguis effluxit; muri urbis Sessionicae conruerunt; apud Andecavam urbem terra tremuit; infra muros vero Burdegalensis oppidi ingressi lupi canes deforaverunt, nequaquam hominem metuentes; per caelum ignis discurrere visus est. Sed et Vasatensis civitas incendio concremata est, ita ut eclesiae vel domus aeclesiasticae vastarentur. Ministerium tamen omne ereptum fuisse cognovimus.

E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:17 am

As usual you do not answer the question or comment on the source. As Tiompan pointe out you can't seem to read.
You do admit the BM article makes you look grotesque.

https://blog.britishmuseum.org/decoding ... saxon-art/

Let us have your view. Did you read the piece or not. Is the British museum in league with the martians?

Michelle I have demonstrated again and again this person's inability to contribute or comment or even engage. All he does is repeat and abuse. Now we get irrelevant passages in Latin, which he cannot read. Why is he here?
Last edited by Simon21 on Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:43 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Simon21
 
Posts: 490
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:40 am

Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:20 am

E.P. Grondine wrote:

simon wrote:I can read Latin whether you accept it or not.


Well, you have not shown that you can read Latin in any of your posts yet.
But I suppose it won't hurt anyone to give you another couple of chances:

V 33. De prodigiis.

Anno quinto Childeberthi regis Arvernorum regionem diluvia magna praessirunt, ita ut per dies 12 non cessaret a pluvia, tantaque inundatione Limane est infusum, ut multos, ne simentem iacerent, prohiberet. Flumina quoque Leger Flavarisque, quem Elacrem vocitant, vel reliqui torrentes decurrentes in eum ita intumuerunt, ut terminus, quos numquam excesserant, praeterirent. Quae grande de pecoribus excidium, de culturis detrimentum, de aedificiis fecere naufragium. Pari modo Rhodanus cum Arare coniunctus, ripas excidens, grave damnum populis intulit, murus Lugdunensis civitatis aliqua ex parte subvertit. Quiescentibus vero pluviis, arbores denuo floruerunt; erat enim mensis Septembris. In Toronico vero eo anno mane, priusquam dies inlucescerit, fulgor per caelum cucurrisse visus est et ad orientis plagam caecidisse. Sed et sonitus tamquam diruentes arbores per totam terram illam auditus est; quod ideo non est de arbore aestimandum, quia in quinquaginta aut amplius milia est auditum. Ipso anno graviter urbis Burdegalensis a terrae motu concussa est, moeniaque civitatis in discrimine eversionis extetirunt; atque ita omnes populus metu mortis exterritus est, ut, si non fugiret, potaret se cum urbe dehiscere. Unde et multi ad civitatis alias transierunt. Qui tremor ad vicinas civitatis porrectus est et usque Spaniam attigit, sed non tam valide. Tamen de Pirineis montibus inmense lapides sunt commoti, qui pecora hominisque prostraverunt. Nam et vicus Burdegalensis incendium divinitus ortum exussit, ita ut subito conpraehensi igni tam domus quam areae cum annonis incendio cremarentur, nullum paenitus incitamentum habens ignis alieni, forsitan iussione divina. Nam et Aurilianensis civitas grave incendio conflagravit, in tantum ut ditioribus nihil paenitus remaneret; et si aliquis ab igne quicquam eripuit, ab insistentibus furibus est dereptum. Apud terminum Carnotenum verus de effracto pane sangues effluxit. Graviter tunc et Beturica civitas a grandine verberata est.


VI 21. De signis ostensis.

Haec in hoc anno iteratis signa apparuerunt: luna eclypsim passa est; infra Toronicum territurium verus de fracto pane sanguis effluxit; muri urbis Sessionicae conruerunt; apud Andecavam urbem terra tremuit; infra muros vero Burdegalensis oppidi ingressi lupi canes deforaverunt, nequaquam hominem metuentes; per caelum ignis discurrere visus est. Sed et Vasatensis civitas incendio concremata est, ita ut eclesiae vel domus aeclesiasticae vastarentur. Ministerium tamen omne ereptum fuisse cognovimus.



[size=150]Not the slightest relevance to the subject in any of this. Like his peculiar views of the holocaust.
Where is the reference to meteors from outer space in these passages? Just one reference will do.
Why is this troll not canned?
Last edited by Simon21 on Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:44 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Simon21
 
Posts: 490
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:40 am

Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:24 am

Unfortunately our serial troll has tried to distract from his own disgusting interests one of which appears to be porn.

Those interested in the conversion (catholic) will know that Bede is the authority here. Needless to say Bede, like every other source from this period makes no references to meteors or aliens.
Simon21
 
Posts: 490
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:40 am

Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:00 pm



simon wrote:Let us have your view.


Like most Anglo Saxon grave good deposits,
something stolen, something imitation and poorly made, something old, something new

Image

Note the Coptic Interlace in this item, usually seen in "insular" manuscripts.
I am waiting for you to claim that that the Book of Kells was written by Anglo Saxons, simon.

One of the problems you face, simon,
is that there is abundant evidence of jewelry workshops from this period in the areas I pointed you to,
{which I pointed you to several pages of your insults ago)
while you have no evidence of any early anglo saxon jewelry workshops.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:11 am

Like most Anglo Saxon grave good deposits,
something stolen, something imitation and poorly made, something old, something new


That is not what the article says though does it. So you are lying about having read it - this continued mendacity just adds to the fact that you must go. You have been banned on two boards and locked out of one stream here.

Decoding Anglo-Saxon art
The intricate designs of Anglo-Saxon brooches, buckles, and other pieces of decorative metalwork are not just pretty decoration, they have multi-layered symbolic meanings and tell stories. Curator Rosie Weetch and Illustrator Craig Williams team up to decode some key Anglo-Saxon objects.

Turning the brooch upside-down reveals four heads in profile on the rectangular head of the brooch, highlighted in purple. Click on the image for larger version.
Craig Williams, Illustrator and Rosie Weetch, Curator 28 May 2014

One of the most enjoyable things about working with the British Museum’s Anglo-Saxon collection is having the opportunity to study the intricate designs of the many brooches, buckles, and other pieces of decorative metalwork. This is because in Anglo-Saxon art there is always more than meets the eye.

The objects invite careful contemplation, and you can find yourself spending hours puzzling over their designs, finding new beasts and images. The dense animal patterns that cover many Anglo-Saxon objects are not just pretty decoration, they have multi-layered symbolic meanings and tell stories. Anglo-Saxons, who had a love of riddles and puzzles of all kinds, would have been able to ‘read’ the stories embedded in the decoration. But for us it is trickier as we are not fluent in the language of Anglo-Saxon art.

Anglo-Saxon art went through many changes between the 5th and 11th centuries, but puzzles and storytelling remained central. The early art style of the Anglo-Saxon period is known as Style I and was popular in the late 5th and 6th centuries. It is characterised by what seems to be a dizzying jumble of animal limbs and face masks, which has led some scholars to describe the style as an ‘animal salad’. Close scrutiny shows that Style I is not as abstract as first appears, and through carefully following the decoration in stages we can unpick the details and begin to get a sense for what the design might mean.

Decoding the square-headed brooch.
Decoding the square-headed brooch. Click on the image for a larger version.

One of the most exquisite examples of Style I animal art is a silver-gilt square-headed brooch from a female grave on the Isle of Wight. Its surface is covered with at least 24 different beasts: a mix of birds’ heads, human masks, animals and hybrids. Some of them are quite clear, like the faces in the circular lobes projecting from the bottom of the brooch. Others are harder to spot, such as the faces in profile that only emerge when the brooch is turned upside-down. Some of the images can be read in multiple ways, and this ambiguity is central to Style I art.

Turning the brooch upside-down reveals four heads in profile on the rectangular head of the brooch, highlighted in purple. Click on the image for larger version.
Turning the brooch upside-down reveals four heads in profile on the rectangular head of the brooch, highlighted in purple. Click on the image for larger version.

Once we have identified the creatures on the brooch, we can begin to decode its meaning. In the lozenge-shaped field at the foot of the brooch is a bearded face with a helmet underneath two birds that may represent the Germanic god Woden/Odin with his two companion ravens. The image of a god alongside other powerful animals may have offered symbolic protection to the wearer like a talisman or amulet.

Decoding the great gold buckle from Sutton Hoo. Click on the image for larger version.
Gold belt buckle. Sutton Hoo, Suffolk, early 7th century AD. Click on the image for a larger version.

Style I was superseded by Style II in the late 6th century. This later style has more fluid and graceful animals, but these still writhe and interlace together and require patient untangling. The great gold buckle from Sutton Hoo is decorated in this style. From the thicket of interlace that fills the buckle’s surface 13 different animals emerge. These animals are easier to spot: the ring-and-dot eyes, the birds’ hooked beaks, and the four-toed feet of the animals are good starting points. At the tip of the buckle, two animals grip a small dog-like creature in their jaws and on the circular plate, two snakes intertwine and bite their own bodies. Such designs reveal the importance of the natural world, and it is likely that different animals were thought to hold different properties and characteristics that could be transferred to the objects they decorated. The fearsome snakes, with their shape-shifting qualities, demand respect and confer authority, and were suitable symbols for a buckle that adorned a high-status man, or even an Anglo-Saxon king.

The five senses on the Fuller Brooch. Click on the image for a larger version
The five senses on the Fuller Brooch. Anglo-Saxon, late 9th century AD. Click on the image for a larger version.

Animal art continued to be popular on Anglo-Saxon metalwork throughout the later period, when it went through further transformations into the Mercian Style (defined by sinuous animal interlace) in the 8th century and then into the lively Trewhiddle Style in the 9th century. Trewhiddle-style animals feature in the roundels of the Fuller Brooch, but all other aspects of its decoration are unique within Anglo-Saxon art. Again, through a careful unpicking of its complex imagery we can understand its visual messages. At the centre is a man with staring eyes holding two plants. Around him are four other men striking poses: one, with his hands behind his back, sniffs a leaf; another rubs his two hands together; the third holds his hand up to his ear; and the final one has his whole hand inserted into his mouth. Together these strange poses form the earliest personification of the five senses: Sight, Smell, Touch, Hearing, and Taste. Surrounding these central motifs are roundels depicting animals, humans, and plants that perhaps represent God’s creation.

This iconography can best be understood in the context of the scholarly writings of King Alfred the Great (d. AD 899), which emphasised sight and the ‘mind’s eye’ as the principal way in which wisdom was acquired along with the other senses. Given this connection, perhaps it was made at Alfred the Great’s court workshop and designed to be worn by one of his courtiers?

Throughout the period, the Anglo-Saxons expressed a love of riddles and puzzles in their metalwork. Behind the non-reflective glass in the newly opened Sir Paul and Lady Ruddock Gallery of Sutton Hoo and Europe AD 300–1100, you can do like the Anglo-Saxons and get up close to these and many other objects to decode the messages yourself.


A leading authority of the British Museum blows your idiotic non theory out of the water. Completely. More reason to have you removed.

Note the Coptic Interlace in this item, usually seen in "insular" manuscripts.


There were no Egyptian community in Scotland (Copts)in the sixth century. According to you they were edged out by the Martians and Russians

I am waiting for you to claim that that the Book of Kells was written by Anglo Saxons, simon.


I will give you a lesson on the Book of Kells when you tell me what a book created in the 9th century has to do with the Anglo Saxon acculturisation of Roman Britain in the fifth and sixth. 500 years out

Total non-sequitur and attempt by someone who doesn't even know basic dating to find something to say. These supposed books this person claiims to have written must be like reading Monty Python scripts no coherent structure.
One of the problems you face, simon,
is that there is abundant evidence of jewelry workshops from this period in the areas I pointed you to,
{which I pointed you to several pages of your insults ago)
while you have no evidence of any early anglo saxon jewelry workshops.


You have not produced a single shred of evidence for anything you have said.
You have lied about producing sources, the only credible one contradicted you.
As Tiompan said this is what youo do make irrelevant silly statements, then failing to produce anything to back them up.

I have produced accredited authorities.
Now I am waiting for you to produce material of a similar nature.
Not incoherent maps which show Scotland in Denmark,
Not screeds of Latin from books written long after the adventus which actually contradict you.

Evidence, facts, data a single credited article where a historian states the anglo Saxons British
people produced no metal ware for 500 years.

If you took such bigoted atitudes towards the Shawnee people it is not surprising they held you in such contempt
I would wager your views do not make you popular with jewish people either



.
Last edited by Simon21 on Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
Simon21
 
Posts: 490
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:40 am

Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:29 am

Game, set, match

In This Article
Anglo-Saxon Metalwork
Introduction
General Overviews

Introduction

Interest in the design and structure of objects of metalwork of the pre-Conquest period can already be seen in the pioneering work of Brian Faussett between 1769 and 1773, exemplified in his detailed drawings and notes on, for example, the Kingston Down brooch in his surviving notebooks, published long after his death (Charles Roach Smith, Inventorium Sepulchrale, an Account of Some Antiquities Dug Up at Gilton, Kingston, Sibertswold, Barfriston, Beakesbourne, Chartham, and Crundale, in the County of Kent, from 1757 to 1773, London: privately printed, 1856). Although Faussett did not recognize his excavated material as Anglo-Saxon, thinking that he was investigating Romano-British graves, nevertheless his work (especially in his detailed recording of all finds, and therefore all metalwork objects, including toilet implements, weapons, and tools, as well as the gold jewelry) is in many ways a true starting point for two trends still working themselves out in the literature: the refining of work defining styles and dating the material, and the study of the full range of metalwork and its associated crafts. It is true, however, that objects of fine metalwork have excited the greatest interest, encouraged by spectacular finds from early sites such as Sutton Hoo and of hoards such as that from Trewhiddle, Cornwall (see Specific Sites). More recently, the 7th-century “Staffordshire hoard,” with its collection of gold and jeweled fragments, many from weapons and armor, has reinforced interest in the spectacular and also in the emphasis on the early period. It is likely that as studies of this new material come out, the history of early Anglo-Saxon fine metalworking (and its design and iconography) will be rewritten, although this process is already well on its way, with the huge increase in numbers brought about by the popularity of metal detecting and the working of the Treasure Act 1996 and the development of the Portable Antiquities scheme (for a short explanation of these, see Leahy and Bland 2009, cited under Staffordshire Hoard). The bias toward fine metalwork is therefore reflected here: nevertheless, the overall story of scholarly work on Anglo-Saxon metalwork has actually been more balanced, with studies of ferrous metalworking and other humbler metals such as lead appearing from early in the 20th century, and with the archaeology of early settlements, middle Saxon estates, and later towns showing the importance of metalwork studies in social and economic development. Much of the best of recent work has looked at the context in which the metalwork was made: its makers and their role in society, and the techniques and technology involved (including documentary and literary as well as archaeological sources). Evidence of comparative material and sites from Scandinavia and western Europe, and from Celtic and Viking sites within Ireland and the British Isles, has often proved illuminating for contemporary Anglo-Saxon practice, and the study of Style in particular requires knowledge of Germanic and Viking Age styles. Arising from all this work, the meaning of metalwork objects within the developing society—whether as treasure, functional objects (e.g., dress fasteners, tools, or armor), personal adornment, signifiers of ethnicity or personal status, or carrying in its iconography some deeper meaning (e.g., relating to religious beliefs or royal power)—has come to be seen as of equal importance to dating.

General Overviews
There are very few works that can be classified as overviews of Anglo-Saxon metalwork, as distinct from surveys of Anglo-Saxon art more generally. One that provides such an overview, however, is Brown 1986, a dissertation (cited under Reference Works). There are some textbooks, however, such as Jessup 1950 and Leahy 2003, that also provide a broad introduction to the area. The best overviews published since the late 1990s are those contained within two encyclopedias. All relevant entries in the Blackwell Encyclopaedia of Anglo-Saxon England (see Blackburn 1999a, Blackburn 1999b, Brown 1999a, Brown 1999b, and Dickinson 1999) still have something to contribute, in spite of the recent publication of the authoritative Oxford Handbook of Anglo-Saxon Archaeology. This latter work includes a section on “Craft Production and Technology” (Thomas 2011), in which each subsection has material relevant to metalwork studies, and concludes with a useful bibliography. Some entries from this handbook, however, are represented under other sections of this bibliography (see Production, Techniques, and Tools and the Ideological Significance of “Treasure”). Other books, for example Wilson 1986, are more-general surveys of Anglo-Saxon art or archaeology but are useful in putting the metalwork (in these objects that are usually viewed as artistic rather than utilitarian) into the context of other media. See also Webster 2012 (cited under Style).

Blackburn, Mark A. S. “Mints and Minting.” In The Blackwell Encyclopaedia of Anglo-Saxon England. Edited by Michael Lapidge, John Blair, Simon Keynes, and Donald Scragg, 317–318. Oxford and Malden, MA: Blackwell, 1999a.

E-mail Citation »

Briefly discusses the evidence for mints and the changing politico-economic contexts in which mints developed. Also the relationship between these and sources of bullion. Minting processes are not touched on.

Blackburn, Mark A. S. “Moneyers.” In The Blackwell Encyclopaedia of Anglo-Saxon England. Edited by Michael Lapidge, John Blair, Simon Keynes, and Donald Scragg, 324–325. Oxford and Malden, MA: Blackwell, 1999b.

E-mail Citation »

Discusses mainly late and post-Conquest evidence for the high status of moneyers.

Brown, Kevin B. “Metalworking.” In The Blackwell Encyclopaedia of Anglo-Saxon England. Edited by Michael Lapidge, John Blair, Simon Keynes, and Donald Scragg, 309–310. Oxford and Malden, MA: Blackwell, 1999a.

E-mail Citation »

Recounts the main technological processes observable in the archaeological record and the surviving material; briefly introduces the related topics of itinerant specialists, permanent workshops, and domestic production.

Brown, Kevin B. “Mining and Quarrying.” In The Blackwell Encyclopaedia of Anglo-Saxon England. Edited by Michael Lapidge, John Blair, Simon Keynes, and Donald Scragg, 315–317. Oxford and Malden, MA: Blackwell, 1999b.

E-mail Citation »

Notes that the areas of iron-ore extraction were the same from Roman times but that lead mining revived only in the 9th century, and that there is little evidence for extraction of other nonferrous metals, for which smiths relied on the recycling of scrap, including coins. Within the early medieval period, increasing specialization reflecting a change from domestic to workshop production is observable.

Dickinson, Tania M. “Jewellery.” In The Blackwell Encyclopaedia of Anglo-Saxon England. Edited by Michael Lapidge, John Blair, Simon Keynes, and Donald Scragg, 258–262. Oxford and Malden, MA: Blackwell, 1999.

E-mail Citation »

A broad chronological survey of Anglo-Saxon jewelry types from the 5th to the 11th centuries, with some attention to societal and dress changes reflected in the forms. Supported by figures with drawings illustrating thirty-five items.

Thomas, Gabor. “Overview: Craft Production and Technology.” In The Oxford Handbook of Anglo-Saxon Archaeology. Edited by Helena Hamerow, David A. Hinton, and Sally Crawford, 405–422. Oxford Handbooks. Oxford and New York: Oxford University Press, 2011.

E-mail Citation »

Useful analysis of sources of evidence and their limitations, and a chronological survey tracing the move of production from the domestic level (with the production of nonutilitarian goods with meaning for personal and group identity) to a relatively small group of itinerant specialists, and then to a developing degree of craft specialization allied to increasing political centralization, and a shift from countryside to town.

Wilson, David M. Anglo-Saxon Art from the Seventh Century to the Norman Conquest. London: Thames and Hudson, 1986.

E-mail Citation »

A broad, handsomely illustrated, chronological overview of all aspects of Anglo-Saxon art, including jewelry and fine metalwork. Still of value because it places the metalwork in the wider art context. Originally published in 1984.
Simon21
 
Posts: 490
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:40 am

Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:58 am


good morning simon -

So far you have provide no links to any early Anglo Saxon jewelry workshop.

Metal working was a skill passed on within a people,
and so far we have no early Anglo Saxon jewelry workshops.
I expect that there will be later Anglo Saxon jewelry workshops found someday,
as I expect that the Anglo Saxons particularly valued jewelers,
and did their best to take some of them as slaves.

On he other hand, that mold recently found in Rheged seems to have passed by your notice.

Metal working just to the north of Girvan -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMzWR3IUecI

Metal working just to the south of Girvan - including gold metal working
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKmjrhdITkg

But I doubt if any data will ever change
your fundamental racism,
by which the local peoples were incapable of fine craftsmanship.
No, in your view it had to be Anglo Saxon.

Now I have pointed out to you exactly how
the previous 300 years of work
on the northern peoples of Britain
and the peoples of Ireland
was based on a literary forgery.

But it appear that that has done nothing to effect
your fundamental racism either.

You mentioned the museum in Dublin.
They used to have a fine collection of early metal working tools on display.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:55 am


When I first checked Pib Burns' note,
I was limited to the paper materials at the University of Virginia Library.
Google has a service in French now.

http://aquitaine.culture.gouv.fr/dossie ... 4fe924314/

http://www.hades-archeologie.com/author/scoopit/

http://www.cap-sciences.net/lieux/caparcheo.html

I used to have pretty good French with a Parisien accent.
If I went to Quebec,
I might end up with what I remember my Uncle John called a "nibellung" accent.

Now it turns out that King Gunthram died right around the time of this impact event,
and then the Francs rose to dominance,
so the object of the exercise would be to give the Daily Mail science writers an even better headline:



"Did an asteroid impact make France French,
and Britain Christian?"

Ou en Francais:
"Est ce que un impact d'un asteroid (genders?)
avec la terre
fait (nombre et temporal?) France Francais,
et Les Anglais Chretienes?"


Voila - tres melieur.


There are an abundance of very obscure saint's lifes' to go through,
as well as very obscure materials on the Pelagian debate.
("The Life of Columbanus" has implications for"The life of Columba"
a possible source documents.)

The field search involves looking for a circular destruction level in a very heavily occupied area,
as well as any impact memorials, and cemeteries.
But then an impact should have left many remains and valuables in place,
the residents and owners blown off the face of the Earth.
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:09 am

You agree your comments about metalwork have been shown to be very stupid and wrong courtesy of the BM

When I first checked Pib Burns' note,
I was limited to the paper materials at the University of Virginia Library.
Google has a service in French now.

http://aquitaine.culture.gouv.fr/dossie ... 4fe924314/

http://www.hades-archeologie.com/author/scoopit/

http://www.cap-sciences.net/lieux/caparcheo.html


I seriously doubt if you have been in a major library in your life.
Appaently you were nothing but a low key hack journalist - according to the other boards.

If you read French you would know these docs say nothing about a meteor hitting Bazas or any other part of Gaul.

Not a word. Zilch, Nada

You have to provide relevant docs. Not a google scrape for any arch. docs in French

Like your Latin extracts which only proved you did not know what you were posting


I used to have pretty good French with a Parisien accent.
If I went to Quebec,
I might end up with what I remember my Uncle John called a "nibellung" accent.


I thik you have just demonstrated you cannot read French. Did your uncle comment on your inability
to write in English is a cohesive, coherent way that other people can undeerstand?

Odd in a journalist = no matter how incompetent

Take the phrase "impact event" which is hideous and clumsy. What you might mean is impact.

As Tiompan used to say to you. Still waiting for evidence
not a series of irrelevant docs .



There are an abundance of very obscure saint's lifes' to go through,
as well as very obscure materials on the Pelagian debate.
("The Life of Columbanus" has implications for"The life of Columba"
a possible source documents.)


Nothing obscure. Saint's lives have been studied for centuries. Only two are relevant one is st Patrick the other I will let you guess
but here's a hint - he wasn't British.

There is also Sidonius Appollinaris And St Martin (who met Magnus Maximus and protested about the killing of Priscillian)
but I am not here to educate a moron


The field search involves looking for a circular destruction level in a very heavily occupied area,
as well as any impact memorials, and cemeteries.
But then an impact should have left many remains and valuables in place,
the residents and owners blown off the face of the Earth.


You see this is what I mean by your ignorant lack of English, what is "circular destruction" as opposed to "oblong destruction" or"square destruction"

As for the rest drivel - place looks in remarkable shape for being totally destroyed

https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Tourism-g ... tions.html


But I shouldn't mock yu have accepted that your trolling about Egyptians, Russians etc in Scotland has been shows to be foolish courtesy of the BM
Last edited by Simon21 on Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Simon21
 
Posts: 490
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:40 am

Re: Roman DNA

Postby circumspice » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:21 am

EP didn't use to be this bad in the fairly recent past. He was more or less coherent. I think that we can look back & see that he began to behave oddly around the same time he got fixated on giants in the Americas. Perhaps this is the onset of senile dementia?
"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope
User avatar
circumspice
 
Posts: 821
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 7:10 pm

Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:31 am

circumspice wrote:EP didn't use to be this bad in the fairly recent past. He was more or less coherent. I think that we can look back & see that he began to behave oddly around the same time he got fixated on giants in the Americas. Perhaps this is the onset of senile dementia?


One of my close relatives suffers from this and I sincerly would not wish it on anyone.

But at the same time this has become ludicrous and this is surely not supposed to be a therapy board.

There are many legitimate and interesting views to take on the archaeology of Britain at this period and it would be great to hear other considered opinions, not these witterings.
Simon21
 
Posts: 490
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:40 am

Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:48 am

good morning simon -

So far you have provide no links to any early Anglo Saxon jewelry workshop.

Metal working was a skill passed on within a people,
and so far we have no early Anglo Saxon jewelry workshops.
I expect that there will be later Anglo Saxon jewelry workshops found someday,
as I expect that the Anglo Saxons particularly valued jewelers,
and did their best to take some of them as slaves.



But you agree that the BM has blown you out of the water, completely. Or are you accusing the BM of being communists?


On he other hand, that mold recently found in Rheged seems to have passed by your notice.
Metal working just to the north of Girvan -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMzWR3IUecI

Metal working just to the south of Girvan - including gold metal working
[/quote]

This is your "evidence" . The narrator cannot even pronounce Rheged properely.

What an idiot. You haven't listened to your own clips. What next Game of Thrones clips - lord of the rings?.

I am waiting for evidence from the National Museum of Scotland - please send it


But I doubt if any data will ever change
your fundamental racism,
by which the local peoples were incapable of fine craftsmanship.
No, in your view it had to be Anglo Saxon.


Again you seem to be rambling incoherently. Your phrases seem to be chosen at random.

Now I have pointed out to you exactly how
the previous 300 years of work
on the northern peoples of Britain
and the peoples of Ireland
was based on a literary forgery.


Again incoherence. None of this makes sense. What 300 years? What forgery?

But it appear that that has done nothing to effect
your fundamental racism either.

You mentioned the museum in Dublin.
They used to have a fine collection of early metal working tools on display.
[/quote]

And you no doubt could write coherently at some stage. Now you are contradicting yourself again.
And with someone with strange views of the Holocaust and who thinks being called "gay" is an insult I would go easy on the racism accusations.
Simon21
 
Posts: 490
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:40 am

PreviousNext

Return to Old World

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests