Roman DNA

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Re: Roman DNA

Postby circumspice » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:56 pm

Welcome back Min!

Welcome to my nightmare ~ Alice Cooper

Welcome to my nightmare
I think you're gonna like it
I think you're gonna feel you belong
A nocturnal vacation
Unnecessary sedation
You want to feel at home 'cause you belong
Welcome to my nightmare, whoa-whoa-oh
Welcome to my breakdown
I hope I didn't scare you
That's just the way we are when we come down
We sweat and laugh and scream here
'Cause life is just a dream here
You know inside you feel right at home here
Welcome to my breakdown, whoa-whoa-oh
You're welcome to my nightmare, yeah-yeah-ah
Welcome to my nightmare
I think you're gonna like it
I think you're gonna feel you belong
We sweat and laugh and scream here
'Cause life is just a dream here
You know inside you feel right at home here
Welcome to my nightmare, ooh-ooh-ooh
Welcome to my breakdown Yeah


***I wanted to embed a link to the song here but I couldn't, maybe because I use a smart phone for my internet source.

Anywho, welcome back! :lol:
"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:10 am

As has been said earlier there are a number of weird and wacky explanations for how Roman Britian translformed into Anglo Saxon England. Here is an accredited article which attempts a more considered explanation:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... ode=ymed20


Rigid apartheid in a rural community where both sides have the same technological standing? Is that likely? And would the Roman British totally have abandoned their religion and language?

Here is a good review which disputes the above:

https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/hand ... sequence=1


What is intreresting about all this is the role archaeology fulfils here. The key problem however is identifying and corectly assigning finds. It used to be beleived for example that belt sets in a grave indicated a soldier's burial. Now it is believed that belt sets were also worn by civilians in the civil service.
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:32 am

obviously, there is a market for frauds:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Descr ... of_Britain

https://books.google.com/books?id=OwJIA ... ge&q&f=fal

Nice footnotes on Druids, particularly page 21 on the triads,
and notes on mistletoe.

mention of Caledonians (Cruit) page 56
page 61 et seq
DeuCalidonian Ocean page 73
Agricola campaign page 86

mention of Venturiones, given as Vecturiones, page 58

The Description of Britain, also known by its Latin name De Situ Britanniae ("On the Situation of Britain"), was a literary forgery perpetrated by Charles Bertram on the historians of England. It purported to be a 15th-century manuscript by the English monk Richard of Westminster, including information from a lost contemporary account of Britain by a Roman general (dux), new details of the Roman roads in Britain in the style of the Antonine Itinerary, and "an antient map" as detailed as (but improved upon) the works of Ptolemy. Bertram disclosed the existence of the work through his correspondence with the antiquarian William Stukeley by 1748, provided him "a copy" which was made available in London by 1749, and published it in Latin in 1757. By this point, his Richard had become conflated with the historical Richard of Cirencester. The text was treated as a legitimate and major source of information on Roman Britain from the 1750s through the 19th century, when it was progressively debunked by John Hodgson, Karl Wex, B. B. Woodward, and J. E. B. Mayor. Effects from the forgery can still be found in works on British history and it is generally credited with having named the Pennine Mountains.

To sum this up, three centuries of text work on the Scotti, Caledonians, Vododin, and "Picts" are based on a literary forgery whose construction is still without a rigorous analysis. It is necessary to deconstruct this to its sources, with the "contemporary account" pulled out and taken apart.

This work was also used by Gibbons, so his work and conclusions will have to be worked through again, as it is based at least in part on this forgery.

The reason why that forgery was successful and effective was because it supported nationalist beliefs.

But don't let these facts stop any of you - carry on.

As far as I am concerned, please excuse me if I call horseshit; I think I'll go with that $125 volume from Oxford,
drop my "geological specimens" in the mail, look for records in the Vatican and eastern empire pertaining to events around 582 CE,
and simply wait for the excavation reports.
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 10:59 am

obviously, there is a market for frauds:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Descr ... of_Britain

https://books.google.com/books?id=OwJIA ... ge&q&f=fal

Nice footnotes on Druids, particularly page 21 on the triads,
and notes on mistletoe.

mention of Caledonians (Cruit) page 56
page 61 et seq
DeuCalidonian Ocean page 73
Agricola campaign page 86

mention of Venturiones, given as Vecturiones, page 58

The Description of Britain, also known by its Latin name De Situ Britanniae ("On the Situation of Britain"), was a literary forgery perpetrated by Charles Bertram on the historians of England. It purported to be a 15th-century manuscript by the English monk Richard of Westminster, including information from a lost contemporary account of Britain by a Roman general (dux), new details of the Roman roads in Britain in the style of the Antonine Itinerary, and "an antient map" as detailed as (but improved upon) the works of Ptolemy. Bertram disclosed the existence of the work through his correspondence with the antiquarian William Stukeley by 1748, provided him "a copy" which was made available in London by 1749, and published it in Latin in 1757. By this point, his Richard had become conflated with the historical Richard of Cirencester. The text was treated as a legitimate and major source of information on Roman Britain from the 1750s through the 19th century, when it was progressively debunked by John Hodgson, Karl Wex, B. B. Woodward, and J. E. B. Mayor. Effects from the forgery can still be found in works on British history and it is generally credited with having named the Pennine Mountains.

To sum this up, three centuries of text work on the Scotti, Caledonians, Vododin, and "Picts" are based on a literary forgery whose construction is still without a rigorous analysis. It is necessary to deconstruct this to its sources, with the "contemporary account" pulled out and taken apart.

This work was also used by Gibbons, so his work and conclusions will have to be worked through again, as it is based at least in part on this forgery.

The reason why that forgery was successful and effective was because it supported nationalist beliefs.


This is all fake as you say so what is the point of quoting it?

But don't let these facts stop any of you - carry on.


What facts?


As far as I am concerned, please excuse me if I call horseshit; I think I'll go with that $125 volume from Oxford,
drop my "geological specimens" in the mail, look for records in the Vatican and eastern empire pertaining to events around 582 CE,
and simply wait for the excavation reports


Call horseshit all you like just try to write coherently
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:50 pm


simon -

a little chronological problem -
In the "Mirror", this is set about 20 years too late,
based on the Historia Franconum and its dates for the "terra motus".

This is part of a letter to Ethelbert,
[wikipedia here
550 – 24 February 616,
In the late ninth century Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, he is referred to as a bretwalda, or "Britain-ruler".
He was the first English king to convert to Christianity.
He married Bertha, the Christian daughter of Charibert, king of the Franks,
thus building an alliance with the most powerful state in contemporary Western Europe;
the marriage probably took place before he came to the throne.
Bertha's influence may have led to Pope Gregory I's decision to send Augustine as a missionary from Rome.
Augustine landed on the Isle of Thanet in east Kent in 597.
Shortly thereafter, Æthelberht converted to Christianity,]

But then my Latin is so bad right now -
could you be a dear and do a little translation work?:
Given your interests, this should be right up your alley.

Signs of the approach of the end of the world:
(Rolls' gloss, not mine)

" Propterea scire vestram gloriam volumus,
quia sicut in Scriptura sacra ex verbis Domini Omnipotentis agnoscimus,
praesentis mundi iam terminus iuxta est,
et sanctorum regnum venturum est,
quod nullo unquam poterit line terminari.

Appropinquante autem eodem mundi termino,
multa immiennent quae antea non fuerunt:
videlicet inmutatio aeris ( 4)
terroresque de coelo,
et contra ordinem temporum tempestates,
bella, fames, pestilentise, terraemotus per loca;
quae tamen non omnia nostris diebus Ventura sunt,
sed post nostros dies omnia subsequentur.

Vos itaque, si qua ex his evenire in terra vestra cognoscitis,
nullo modo vestrum animum perturbetis;
quia iccirco haec signa de fine saeculi praemittuntur,
ut de animabus nostris debeamus esse solliciti,
de mortis bora suspecti,
et venturo Iudici in bonis actibus inveniamur esse praeparati.
Haec nunc, gloriose file,
paucis locutus sum,
ut cum Christiana fides in regno vestro excreverit,
nostra quoque apud vos locutio latior1 excrescat,
et tanto plus loqui habeat,
quanto se in mente nostra gauclia de gentis vestrae perfecta
conversione multiplicant.

" Parva autem exennia transmisi,
quae vobis parva non erunt,
cum a vobis ex beati Petri apostoli fuerint benedictione suscepta.
Omnipotens itaque Deus in vobis gratiam suani quam coepit, perficiat,
atque vitam vestram et hie per multorum annorum curricula extendat,
et post longa tempora in coelestis vos patriae congregatione recipiat.
Incolumem excellentiam vestram gratia superna custodiat, domine fili.

Date glossed as Jun. 22. 610 A.D. -
" Data die decimo kalendarum Juliarum,
imperante domino nostro Mauricio Tiberio piissimo Augusto anno nono decimo,
post consulatum2 eiusdem domini anno octavo decimo, indictione quarta,"
i
1 [quceque] quoque, MS. i
3 [faciat] facias, MS.
* [adnisum] ad nisum, MS. 1 aeris] aieris, MS.
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:57 pm

simon -

a little chronological problem -
In the "Mirror", this is set about 20 years too late,
based on the Historia Franconum and its dates for the "terra motus".


No the problem is you write in non-sequiturs, the above is incomprehensible
This is part of a letter to Ethelbert,
[wikipedia here
550 – 24 February 616,
In the late ninth century Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, he is referred to as a bretwalda, or "Britain-ruler".
He was the first English king to convert to Christianity.
He married Bertha, the Christian daughter of Charibert, king of the Franks,
thus building an alliance with the most powerful state in contemporary Western Europe;
the marriage probably took place before he came to the throne.
Bertha's influence may have led to Pope Gregory I's decision to send Augustine as a missionary from Rome.
Augustine landed on the Isle of Thanet in east Kent in 597.
Shortly thereafter, Æthelberht converted to Christianity,]


This is a wikipedia entry not a letter
But then my Latin is so bad right now -
could you be a dear and do a little translation work?:
Given your interests, this should be right up your alley.


" Propterea scire vestram gloriam volumus,
quia sicut in Scriptura sacra ex verbis Domini Omnipotentis agnoscimus,
praesentis mundi iam terminus iuxta est,
et sanctorum regnum venturum est,
quod nullo unquam poterit line terminari.

Appropinquante autem eodem mundi termino,
multa immiennent quae antea non fuerunt:
videlicet inmutatio aeris ( 4)
terroresque de coelo,
et contra ordinem temporum tempestates,
bella, fames, pestilentise, terraemotus per loca;
quae tamen non omnia nostris diebus Ventura sunt,
sed post nostros dies omnia subsequentur.

Vos itaque, si qua ex his evenire in terra vestra cognoscitis,
nullo modo vestrum animum perturbetis;
quia iccirco haec signa de fine saeculi praemittuntur,
ut de animabus nostris debeamus esse solliciti,
de mortis bora suspecti,
et venturo Iudici in bonis actibus inveniamur esse praeparati.
Haec nunc, gloriose file,
paucis locutus sum,
ut cum Christiana fides in regno vestro excreverit,
nostra quoque apud vos locutio latior1 excrescat,
et tanto plus loqui habeat,
quanto se in mente nostra gauclia de gentis vestrae perfecta
conversione multiplicant.

" Parva autem exennia transmisi,
quae vobis parva non erunt,
cum a vobis ex beati Petri apostoli fuerint benedictione suscepta.
Omnipotens itaque Deus in vobis gratiam suani quam coepit, perficiat,
atque vitam vestram et hie per multorum annorum curricula extendat,
et post longa tempora in coelestis vos patriae congregatione recipiat.
Incolumem excellentiam vestram gratia superna custodiat, domine fili.

Date glossed as Jun. 22. 610 A.D. -
" Data die decimo kalendarum Juliarum,
imperante domino nostro Mauricio Tiberio piissimo Augusto anno nono decimo,
post consulatum2 eiusdem domini anno octavo decimo, indictione quarta,"
i
1 [quceque] quoque, MS. i
3 [faciat] facias, MS.


Why? Is this not obvious? It is a common trope from when Christianity was a millenial religion.
In 1000 western Europeans slept in graveyards waiting for Christ to appear, he didn't

And what have these pieces to do with Anglo-Saxon adventus and acculturisatoin of the Romano British.
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:51 am



Good mrning, simon -

They have these wonderful computer aides for the handicapped nowadays.
Here's how google translates this passage from that letter to Ethelbert:

For your glory;
As for the Scriptures by the words of the Almighty Lord,
present the world that the end of the
and the kingdom come,
The line will never terminate.

But as the same world approaching,
Many immiennent that have not been heard;
the change of air (4)
terrors from heaven;
and the order of seasons,
wars, famines, pestilentise, earthquakes in divers places;
In our own days to come, which, however, are not everything,
but will all follow after our days.

Do you, therefore, find any of these things to happen in your land, do you learn,
in no way is not your mind be disturbed;
For that reason the signs of the end of the world sent;
we may be solicitous for our souls, so that,
about an hour of suspicion
and the upcoming trial in good words found prepared.
This is now gloriously file;
few words,
so that, when the Christian faith shall increase in your kingdom,
you may also increase our latior1;
and so much the more to talk may have,
is perfect in proportion as he is in the mind of your country when our gauclia
the conversion is completed.

Little, however, presents transmitted
they will be the things that will not seem small,
when it is from the blessing they have been to you, with the blessing of St. Peter the Apostle received.
The grace of the Almighty God is in you, therefore, to show which He has begun,
and prolong your life here through a course of many years,
And after a time you into our country gathering again.
Heavenly Grace preserve your excellency in safety, O Lord, Son of."

Well simon, it looks like Latin translators don't have to worry about being replaced by machines quite yet.
On the other hand, it also looks like Google has some positions open in ATN algorithm work.
I wonder if I can interest them in Amalagamated Vaporware's cat to human translator?

well, back to the trot.
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:16 am


This is strange.

This translation by Catholic priests also seems more than a little off as well:

“Besides, we would have your glory know,
we find in the holy Scripture from the words of the Almighty Lord,
that the end of this present world, and the kingdom of the saints, is about to come, which will never terminate.

But as the same end of the world approaches,
many things are at hand which were not before, viz:
changes of air, and terrors from heaven,
and tempests out of the order of the seasons,
wars, famines, plagues, earthquakes in several places;
which things will not, nevertheless, happen in our days,
but will all follow after our days.

If you, therefore, find any of these things to happen in your country,
let not your mind be in any way disturbed;
for these signs of the end of the world are sent before,
for this reason, that we may be solicitous for our souls,
suspicious of the hour of death,
and may be found prepared with good works to meet our Judge.

Thus much, my illustrious son, I have said in few words,
to the end that when the Christian faith shall increase in your kingdom,
our discourse to you may also be more copious,
and we may be pleased to say the more,
in proportion as joy for the conversion of your nation is multiplied in our mind."

ttps://www.ecatholic2000.com/bede2/untitled-38.shtml
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:38 am


simon wrote:And what have these pieces to do with Anglo-Saxon adventus and acculturisation of the Romano British.


My G*d simon, there are so many dullards in the world!

This contemporary letter from the Pope to Ethelbert
is referring to the destruction of Bazas by impact within the kingdom of the Franks.
Its kind of hard to argue millenialism when the events took place about 400 years before 1000 CE.

According to wikipedia, Ethelbert was the ruler of Britain.
Now there is nothing like a nice impact event to make you want to get right with the Big Fellow,
whatever religion happens to be about,
and in this case this impact event appears to have led to the adoption of Christianity in Britain.

Now there's a nice headline for the science reporters at the Daily Mail:
"Did an asteroid impact lead to Britain becoming Christian?"

That kind of PR would certainly lead to an increase in ESA neo detection funding.
and in this case we're talking many millions of Euros,
well beyond my own pocket.
NASA did not even have a neo office when I began reporting on this problem,
and now its budget is $150 million dollars per year.

That might happen,
unless the G*d d*d f*g Mars Nuts use the impact to argue for flying a few self selected individuals off to Mars.
But then what do I know?

Christ, I would be better off learning Estonian and translating Meri's books.
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:08 am

This is a chuckle from a Life of Saint Ethelbert:
"Some [people] say everyone is going to make it into heaven eventually,
[and] some [people] say there is a purgatory if you didn't do something wrong
but did nothing right as well."
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:32 am

My G*d simon, there are so many dullards in the world!


And there are few as resolutely stupid as you.
This contemporary letter from the Pope to Ethelbert
is referring to the destruction of Bazas by impact within the kingdom of the Franks.
Its kind of hard to argue millenialism when the events took place about 400 years before 1000 CE.


If you knew anything about the period and about the sources you woould understand the reference. The end of the world was a common trope at this time. You're congenital inability to grasp even a simple point does give some evidence that you are brain damaged. You certainly can't concentrate.


According to wikipedia, Ethelbert was the ruler of Britain.
Now there is nothing like a nice impact event to make you want to get right with the Big Fellow,
whatever religion happens to be about,
and in this case this impact event appears to have led to the adoption of Christianity in Britain.


Again a wall of dumb ignorance. Aethelberht was obviously bnot ruler of Britain (Aelle of Sussex had the title of Bretwalda too before him, no one knows what it actually means). You probably call yourself Supreme Chief of the Shawnee Nation - but it is completely meaningless.

And for someone who has been blathering on about St Columba - claiming Aethelberht was responsible for the conversion of Britain is apeish and self contradictory. Do say that in Scotland though I would like to see your face afterwards. Oh sorry you think Scotland is in Denmark doen't you. It's actually in Britain


Now there's a nice headline for the science reporters at the Daily Mail:
"Did an asteroid impact lead to Britain becoming Christian?"


I can think of another "mentally challenged US tourist from Ohio gets a facefull in Edinburgh for insulting one of Scotland's patron saints - claims he thought he was in Denmark" Reads rather well :) .
That kind of PR would certainly lead to an increase in ESA neo detection funding.
and in this case we're talking many millions of Euros,
well beyond my own pocket.
NASA did not even have a neo office when I began reporting on this problem,
and now its budget is $150 million dollars per year.


Do you fall down a lot?

That might happen,
unless the G*d d*d f*g Mars Nuts use the impact to argue for flying a few self selected individuals off to Mars.
But then what do I know?

Christ, I would be better off learning Estonian and translating Meri's books.


Or else it is the medication. Get your nurse to explain "no one is going to give you any money for your unreadable books and daft pamphlets, not the Shawnee, not the Danes, not NASA, not the Governor of Ohio get used to poverty - live like St Columba!
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby E.P. Grondine » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:09 am



simon wrote:The end of the world was a common trope at this time.


Pity.
If you actually understood Latin, simon,
then you might understand why the end of the world was a common trope at that time.
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby MichelleH » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:15 pm

E.P. Grondine wrote:

simon wrote:The end of the world was a common trope at this time.


Pity.
If you actually understood Latin, simon,
then you might understand why the end of the world was a common trope at that time.



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Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:09 pm

Pity.
If you actually understood Latin, simon,
then you might understand why the end of the world was a common trope at that time.


Yes its in a book called the Bible, which you haven't ead yet presume to understand the writings of churchmen from the fourth and fifth centuries. The imminent end of the world has been a trope since the gospels were composed. The Gospels are the key texts of the New testament - one of the two basic volumes of the Bible. Can it be made clearer?

The New testament is largely about about a "fellow" called Christ who claimed (as quoted) he was coming back after death to gather the righteous into heaven. This is what Christians were expecting

You simply cannot grasp this can you. No historical sense at all. I presume you think Daniel Boone was like Fess Parker and your average Western gunslinger could fire 30 shots from his six gun and never swore.

How can one explain colour to someone so wilfully blind?

One thing is certain Bazas was not destroyed by aliens or meteors there is no evidence whatsoever for this. None of what you say can be beleived since you cannot read or understand the sources - and apparently and disgracefully have no desire to do so.

Last edited by Simon21 on Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Roman DNA

Postby Simon21 » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:17 pm

MichelleH wrote:
E.P. Grondine wrote:

simon wrote:The end of the world was a common trope at this time.


Pity.
If you actually understood Latin, simon,
then you might understand why the end of the world was a common trope at that time.



How many warnings do you need to be civil?


One cannot debate anything with someone who patently makes things up and says the first things that come into his mind.
This is supposed to be a serious board, this subject certainly is - yet one has to put up with the ignorant vapourings of someone who despite being given every chance to consult the vast literature on this subject refuses to do so and makes the board ridiculous.

Instead of discussing the process of aculturalisation, something which effects us all, and around which there are many conflicting views,
one is confronted with wild notions of metorites causing the Catholic conversion of Southern Britain - surely it is time for this nonsense to be excised.
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