Solar alignments in ancient Egypt

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Re: Solar alignments in ancient Egypt

Postby Tiompan » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:33 am

Simon21 wrote:
Tiompan wrote:
E.P. Grondine wrote:Hi shawomet -
Its not my definition of henge - it is the one commonly used here and elsewhere.


Then why can't you provide the evidence to support that , whilst ignoring the evidence that shows that not to be the case ?
PS .Anything that I have said that is wrong about impacts , please provide the quotes , I'm more than happy to be informed of errors .


Well that is certainly not true


"Certainly not true " suggests that you should have no problem supporting the comment .
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Re: Solar alignments in ancient Egypt

Postby Simon21 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:28 am

"Certainly not true " suggests that you should have no problem supporting the comment .[/quote]

It also suggests you cannot read properely. It was reference to your hilarious I'm more than happy to be informed of errors (provided they are not my own)
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Re: Solar alignments in ancient Egypt

Postby E.P. Grondine » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:11 am

There are sins of omission as well as sins of commission.
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
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Re: Solar alignments in ancient Egypt

Postby Josip199 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:37 am

Varying climatic conditions may lead to the sun being hidden, like when it did not shine on the Abu Simbel Temple on 22 February 2016 even though this day has been designated as the annual sun festival since ancient times.
“Ancient religious beliefs explained solar eclipses as a temporary victory for the forces of darkness and chaos. Ancient scriptures mentioned that the enemies of the sun were three natural forces: storms, which affect the sunrise and sunset; clouds, which hide the sun; and the cold, which affects all creatures and angers the god of the sun.
The enemy of the sun was often depicted in the form of a snake,” Awad explained.
From there comes the importance of the sun in Ancient Egyptian theology, also explaining the importance the Ancient Egyptians gave to solar alignments when the sun illuminates the faces of gods in temples and chapels.
“The architecture of a temple or chapel is a representation of the celestial isthmus that connects the world and the underworld. The structure of the building is a manifestation of the transportation of the sun god and his sacred convoy between the two worlds, across the two dimensions of time and space,” Awad said.
Ancient texts prove how entrenched this solar phenomenon was in the creed of the Ancient Egyptians. Some texts and inscriptions depict rituals of “unity with the solar disc” or the “chapels of the sun god”.
The walls of temples in Thebes carry inscriptions saying that it is the will of the sun god to rise in the east after his disappearance in the underworld.
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Re: Solar alignments in ancient Egypt

Postby Simon21 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:05 am

Josip199 wrote:Varying climatic conditions may lead to the sun being hidden, like when it did not shine on the Abu Simbel Temple on 22 February 2016 even though this day has been designated as the annual sun festival since ancient times.
“Ancient religious beliefs explained solar eclipses as a temporary victory for the forces of darkness and chaos. Ancient scriptures mentioned that the enemies of the sun were three natural forces: storms, which affect the sunrise and sunset; clouds, which hide the sun; and the cold, which affects all creatures and angers the god of the sun.
The enemy of the sun was often depicted in the form of a snake,” Awad explained.
From there comes the importance of the sun in Ancient Egyptian theology, also explaining the importance the Ancient Egyptians gave to solar alignments when the sun illuminates the faces of gods in temples and chapels.
“The architecture of a temple or chapel is a representation of the celestial isthmus that connects the world and the underworld. The structure of the building is a manifestation of the transportation of the sun god and his sacred convoy between the two worlds, across the two dimensions of time and space,” Awad said.
Ancient texts prove how entrenched this solar phenomenon was in the creed of the Ancient Egyptians. Some texts and inscriptions depict rituals of “unity with the solar disc” or the “chapels of the sun god”.
The walls of temples in Thebes carry inscriptions saying that it is the will of the sun god to rise in the east after his disappearance in the underworld.


Given we are talking about Egypt, is it not odd that the Nile was not given vastly more religious significance as compared to the Sun. Practically everyone in the country depended on the river and it's behaviour was far less easy to predict than the Sun.
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Re: Solar alignments in ancient Egypt

Postby circumspice » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:12 am

Simon21 wrote:
Josip199 wrote:Varying climatic conditions may lead to the sun being hidden, like when it did not shine on the Abu Simbel Temple on 22 February 2016 even though this day has been designated as the annual sun festival since ancient times.
“Ancient religious beliefs explained solar eclipses as a temporary victory for the forces of darkness and chaos. Ancient scriptures mentioned that the enemies of the sun were three natural forces: storms, which affect the sunrise and sunset; clouds, which hide the sun; and the cold, which affects all creatures and angers the god of the sun.
The enemy of the sun was often depicted in the form of a snake,” Awad explained.
From there comes the importance of the sun in Ancient Egyptian theology, also explaining the importance the Ancient Egyptians gave to solar alignments when the sun illuminates the faces of gods in temples and chapels.
“The architecture of a temple or chapel is a representation of the celestial isthmus that connects the world and the underworld. The structure of the building is a manifestation of the transportation of the sun god and his sacred convoy between the two worlds, across the two dimensions of time and space,” Awad said.
Ancient texts prove how entrenched this solar phenomenon was in the creed of the Ancient Egyptians. Some texts and inscriptions depict rituals of “unity with the solar disc” or the “chapels of the sun god”.
The walls of temples in Thebes carry inscriptions saying that it is the will of the sun god to rise in the east after his disappearance in the underworld.


Given we are talking about Egypt, is it not odd that the Nile was not given vastly more religious significance as compared to the Sun. Practically everyone in the country depended on the river and it's behaviour was far less easy to predict than the Sun.


In my opinion, that's exactly why the sun has precedence over the Nile River. It's hard for priests & god-kings to seem omniscient if the god they represent is as capricious as a river. The sun is almost boring in its predictability. (especially if you're fairly well acquainted with basic astronomy & have a simple observatory set up) Think of how awe inspiring it would have been to predict an eclipse & have everyone turn to you for answers to their questions, like an oracle.
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Re: Solar alignments in ancient Egypt

Postby Simon21 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:37 pm

circumspice wrote:
Simon21 wrote:
Josip199 wrote:Varying climatic conditions may lead to the sun being hidden, like when it did not shine on the Abu Simbel Temple on 22 February 2016 even though this day has been designated as the annual sun festival since ancient times.
“Ancient religious beliefs explained solar eclipses as a temporary victory for the forces of darkness and chaos. Ancient scriptures mentioned that the enemies of the sun were three natural forces: storms, which affect the sunrise and sunset; clouds, which hide the sun; and the cold, which affects all creatures and angers the god of the sun.
The enemy of the sun was often depicted in the form of a snake,” Awad explained.
From there comes the importance of the sun in Ancient Egyptian theology, also explaining the importance the Ancient Egyptians gave to solar alignments when the sun illuminates the faces of gods in temples and chapels.
“The architecture of a temple or chapel is a representation of the celestial isthmus that connects the world and the underworld. The structure of the building is a manifestation of the transportation of the sun god and his sacred convoy between the two worlds, across the two dimensions of time and space,” Awad said.
Ancient texts prove how entrenched this solar phenomenon was in the creed of the Ancient Egyptians. Some texts and inscriptions depict rituals of “unity with the solar disc” or the “chapels of the sun god”.
The walls of temples in Thebes carry inscriptions saying that it is the will of the sun god to rise in the east after his disappearance in the underworld.


Given we are talking about Egypt, is it not odd that the Nile was not given vastly more religious significance as compared to the Sun. Practically everyone in the country depended on the river and it's behaviour was far less easy to predict than the Sun.


In my opinion, that's exactly why the sun has precedence over the Nile River. It's hard for priests & god-kings to seem omniscient if the god they represent is as capricious as a river. The sun is almost boring in its predictability. (especially if you're fairly well acquainted with basic astronomy & have a simple observatory set up) Think of how awe inspiring it would have been to predict an eclipse & have everyone turn to you for answers to their questions, like an oracle.



Isn't this the exact resson you would need priests and intermediaries? One would have thought predicting an eclipse would be of little value if the indunation failed.
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Re: Solar alignments in ancient Egypt

Postby circumspice » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:21 am

Simon21 wrote:
circumspice wrote:
Simon21 wrote:
Given we are talking about Egypt, is it not odd that the Nile was not given vastly more religious significance as compared to the Sun. Practically everyone in the country depended on the river and it's behaviour was far less easy to predict than the Sun.


In my opinion, that's exactly why the sun has precedence over the Nile River. It's hard for priests & god-kings to seem omniscient if the god they represent is as capricious as a river. The sun is almost boring in its predictability. (especially if you're fairly well acquainted with basic astronomy & have a simple observatory set up) Think of how awe inspiring it would have been to predict an eclipse & have everyone turn to you for answers to their questions, like an oracle.



Isn't this the exact resson you would need priests and intermediaries? One would have thought predicting an eclipse would be of little value if the indunation failed.



The possibility of a failure of the annual inundation of the Nile has been addressed more than once in antiquity by the ancient Egyptians. One famous example is probably from the Greco-Roman period & purports to date from the Old Kingdom. They knew very well from prior experience that they were dependent upon a delicate balance of the annual flood. Too much? The crops rotted in the fields. Too little & no crops grew at all... In the Famine Stele, the god Hapy is identified as the god of the Nile River. However, they go further & identify the god Khnum as the god of the spring that feeds the river... So when a seven year famine occurs because of inadequate flooding, they try to appease Khnum rather than Hapy. So, yes, they had priests & intermediaries... (all of whom were jockeying for ascendancy...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_Stela
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Re: Solar alignments in ancient Egypt

Postby Tiompan » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:37 am

Not only did you fail to support your comment , you had to include another of your made up phrases .
My comment was " I'm more than happy to be informed of errors" . Feel free .
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Re: Solar alignments in ancient Egypt

Postby Simon21 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:18 am

Tiompan wrote:Not only did you fail to support your comment , you had to include another of your made up phrases .
My comment was " I'm more than happy to be informed of errors" . Feel free .


Have I not done this enough? But to one who considers he cannot make errors, pointing them out is pointless. I have highlighted t your dishonesty in such clarity as there can be no serious dispute in the matter, on two seperate occasions.

"made up phrases"
- all phrases are made up are they not, but I will take this as a compliment to my originality and creativity in expression. I always try to generate "made up phrases".

Can I urge you to try to do the same instead of tediously repeating yourself. Mind you even when you do that you get yourself hopelessly confused - which is an achievement of sorts I suppose.
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Re: Solar alignments in ancient Egypt

Postby Simon21 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:25 am

circumspice wrote:
The possibility of a failure of the annual inundation of the Nile has been addressed more than once in antiquity by the ancient Egyptians. One famous example is probably from the Greco-Roman period & purports to date from the Old Kingdom. They knew very well from prior experience that they were dependent upon a delicate balance of the annual flood. Too much? The crops rotted in the fields. Too little & no crops grew at all... In the Famine Stele, the god Hapy is identified as the god of the Nile River. However, they go further & identify the god Khnum as the god of the spring that feeds the river... So when a seven year famine occurs because of inadequate flooding, they try to appease Khnum rather than Hapy. So, yes, they had priests & intermediaries... (all of whom were jockeying for ascendancy...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_Stela


Ther is no doubt the Egyptians knew about the Nile as the Koori know about droughts. My point is that why (as has been ventured) should they be so suppsedly obsessed by the Sun as to align their buildings etc. If they were going to align their buildings why didn't they align them to the Nile or at least one or two,
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Re: Solar alignments in ancient Egypt

Postby circumspice » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:19 am

Simon21 wrote:
circumspice wrote:
The possibility of a failure of the annual inundation of the Nile has been addressed more than once in antiquity by the ancient Egyptians. One famous example is probably from the Greco-Roman period & purports to date from the Old Kingdom. They knew very well from prior experience that they were dependent upon a delicate balance of the annual flood. Too much? The crops rotted in the fields. Too little & no crops grew at all... In the Famine Stele, the god Hapy is identified as the god of the Nile River. However, they go further & identify the god Khnum as the god of the spring that feeds the river... So when a seven year famine occurs because of inadequate flooding, they try to appease Khnum rather than Hapy. So, yes, they had priests & intermediaries... (all of whom were jockeying for ascendancy...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_Stela


Ther is no doubt the Egyptians knew about the Nile as the Koori know about droughts. My point is that why (as has been ventured) should they be so suppsedly obsessed by the Sun as to align their buildings etc. If they were going to align their buildings why didn't they align them to the Nile or at least one or two,


You're questioning the priorities of their ideology. You would need to ask them why since it was their ideology in the first place. I doubt that their answer would have make any sense to us, in our frame of reference. There has always been the challenge of refraining from placing modern judgements on ancient beliefs. We can't compare their level of knowledge & experience to ours. It's a case of apples & oranges. We can try to make sense of their beliefs by studying their written records, if any exist. Otherwise, it's only a guess no matter how educated that guess may be. My uneducated guess is that since the sun was vastly more predictable than the river & therefore more dependable, they assigned a higher status to the sun god. In their pantheon the sun god is the main god, most of the time. There have been a few occasions when other gods took precedence though.
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Re: Solar alignments in ancient Egypt

Postby Simon21 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:08 am

Well questioning ideas and theories is the wab and weft of archaeology. Very often our "knowledge" is our current interperation of the information. Maybe the heavenly hierachy was not so clear in fact.

My main point however is the notion of alignments - are they as common as we beleive or are we just seeing them where they do not exist. I suspect they are just patterns we put on ancient remains If the Egyptians really wanted to align all their major buildings then it seems odd that they did not do so towards the river that gave them life - as they knew.

This could also be a class issue of course, were the gods of the elite worshipped wtih the same fervour by the peasantry.
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Re: Solar alignments in ancient Egypt

Postby E.P. Grondine » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:58 am

Simon21 wrote:Well questioning ideas and theories is the wab and weft of archaeology.
Very often our "knowledge" is our current interpretation of the information.
Maybe the heavenly hierarchy was not so clear in fact.


Exactly - that is how the field of archeology progresses.
Get data by excavation , if no existing paradigm explains it,
create one,
check if existing paradigm explains data,
if not, revise it or replace it.
The same goes for historical research.

spice wrote:I doubt that their answer would have make any sense to us, in our frame of reference. There has always been the challenge of refraining from placing modern judgements on ancient beliefs. We can't compare their level of knowledge & experience to ours. It's a case of apples & oranges. We can try to make sense of their beliefs by studying their written records, if any exist. Otherwise, it's only a guess no matter how educated that guess may be. My uneducated guess is that since the sun was vastly more predictable than the river & therefore more dependable, they assigned a higher status to the sun god. In their pantheon the sun god is the main god, most of the time. There have been a few occasions when other gods took precedence though.


Our frame of reference is always modern science.
Your significant point here is their experiences, which were very different than ours.
One significant difference in their experiences and ours was that their sky was different than ours.
The had experienced cometary dust loading, and impact dust loading,
and the ensuing climate collapses,
and hence the serpent Apep was Ra's most lethal enemy.

Simon21 wrote:My main point however is the notion of alignments -
are they as common as we believe or are we just seeing them where they do not exist?
I suspect they are just patterns we put on ancient remains


That certainly can happen - imaginary patterns have often been placed on ancient remains,
and that happens all of the time -
In man's efforts to understand the world,
he often puts together thing that do not belong together.

Simon21 wrote:If the Egyptians really wanted to align all their major buildings then it seems odd that they did not do so towards the river that gave them life -
as they knew.
This could also be a class issue of course, were the gods of the elite worshiped with the same fervour by the peasantry?


I can't speak to ancient Egypt,
but we can see that among the Maya the commoners were pretty fed up with supporting their priests' sky magic.
Christianity won them over easily at the time of the conquest, and we have their own testimony as to what they were thinking.
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
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Re: Solar alignments in ancient Egypt

Postby Tiompan » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:55 am

Made up =fantasy with nothing to support it .
"But to one who considers he cannot make errors" is an example , where did I say that ?
Read what is said e.g. "Where did I say something wrong about ...." , "I'm more than happy to be informed of errors"
You have only highlighted your own dishonesty , proven by evidence / quotes , whilst failing to provide what you claim is dishonesty .
Abuse and no supporting evidence are common bedfellows .
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