Luwian notes

The Old World is a reference to those parts of Earth known to Europeans before the voyages of Christopher Columbus; it includes Europe, Asia and Africa.

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Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:09 pm

Minimalist wrote:However, I do have my own reductionist version.

What Is More Likely?

A) That ‘god’ tapped moses on the shoulder and told him to get his ass back to Egypt to free his chosen people from slavery; “I could do it myself, of course, said ‘god’ in fact, I could kill every motherfucking Egyptian with a thought and let my chosen people live at the only reliable water source in the region but, fuck it. I want you to lead them through the desert to an arid shithole.”
Or,
B) That some time towards the end of the first millennium the people who found themselves living in the aforementioned arid shithole invented a story to explain why they were there.

But, why stop there?

What is More Likely?
A) That ‘god’ having utterly fucked up the first time decided he had to knock up a virgin Palestinian girl so he could have a son who would then mouth a lot of silly platitudes and then get himself killed so that god could forgive mankind for a sin they never committed and after getting killed came back to life and flew up to fucking heaven.”
Or,
B) That a bunch of people took an existing myth and created a supposedly real hero to personify their desires for their godboy?


But – it continues….
A) Having fucked up twice already (some ‘god’ this guy is) decides they he has to pick another schlepper who likes to sleep in caves and fuck 9 year olds and have one of his ‘angels’ tell this illiterate carpet merchant the real scoop which he then wakes up and tells to other people. Eventually some other schmucks write it down and claim that it is completely identical to the verbal version delivered in the cave.
Or,
B) A bunch of fucking nomads with a serious inferiority complex make up a whole pile a shit to justify their rule over an empire which fell into their lap when the Byzantines and Persians ripped each other to shreds.

Yet…even more

A) ‘God’ who by now looks like a first-class fuck up, forgets what he told the last guy about there being no more changes and sends some golden tablets to a 19th century American con man who invents a whole pile of shit about Planet Kolob and cons Mitt The Shitt Romney to run for president.
Or,
B) Joseph Smith was a fucking criminal who conned a shitload of stupid people and was righteously shot by an angry mob.


I submit that in every case, the answer is B


Hi min -

While I do not believe in Zeus, I do agree with Heraclitus that "Thunderbolt Steers All Things",
(except when super-volcanoes erupt).
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Luwian notes

Postby Minimalist » Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:24 pm

Volcanoes and thunderbolts are real.

Zeus is as fictional as all the rest.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:58 pm

https://phys.org/news/2012-12-tsunami-l ... bbean.html
http://popular-archaeology.com/issue/fa ... ence-shows

Image

My research question is whether this impact disrupted the Atlantic Conveyor.
And that question is still open.
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:14 am

An interesting overview, with archaeology discussed as an economic factor:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antalya_Province

If I am not mistaken in my readings,
then some Bronze Age site near Karyandas should be of very great interest and importance.
The people managing Turkey's sites have a multitude of sites to choose from for development.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Luwian notes

Postby Simon21 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:02 am

My research question is whether this impact disrupted the Atlantic Conveyor.
And that question is still open.


Unlikely since theAtlantic Conveyor was sunk by Argentinian exocets in 1982 with a loss of 12 of its crew and much of the expeditionary force's mobile equipment
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby circumspice » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:49 am

Simon21 wrote:My research question is whether this impact disrupted the Atlantic Conveyor.
And that question is still open.


Unlikely since theAtlantic Conveyor was sunk by Argentinian exocets in 1982 with a loss of 12 of its crew and much of the expeditionary force's mobile equipment


:lol:
"Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, and, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer." ~ Alexander Pope
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:30 pm

Image

This Atlantic Conveyor, not that one.

Why the Argentine government though they could irritate a nuclear power is beyond me,
but I will note that the Argentine Navy never deployed in that conflict.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Luwian notes

Postby Simon21 » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:19 am

One wonders if such an image is meant to be taken seriously. As to the other the Argentinians were in no danger. This being the UK had Thatcher pressed the button nothing would have happened. A pre-recorded apology would have come over the Tannoy giving some limpid excuse before signing off advising some other weapon be used while this one was being repaired.

The wonder was that the fleet actually made it to the Falklands - but that probably had something to do with the fact that some ships were maintained in German dockyards
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:40 pm

From Alan Rubin on the meteorite list:

Is this the first published description of a falling meteorite?
It's from the Aeneid Book II:

The old man had barely spoken when, with a sudden crash,
it thundered on the left, and a star, through the darkness,
slid from the sky, and flew, trailing fire, in a burst of light.
We watched it glide over the highest rooftops,
and bury its brightness, and the sign of its passage,
in the forests of Mount Ida: then the furrow of its long track
gave out a glow, and, all around, the place smoked with sulphur.

This was likely inspired by the Miletus impact. More shortly.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:39 am

And this just in:

https://www.livescience.com/61989-famed ... fakes.html

the new Luwian inscription may be a fake, or may not be

I suppose at this point, it will be a question of tracking down the other team members' working notes.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Luwian notes

Postby Tiompan » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:52 am

There's a lot more to the Melaart story , fascinating stuff .

Not that it matters , but a pre announcement "interpretation" would have been slightly funnier than usual .
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:12 am

The full passage from the Aeneid:

“So crying, she filled all the house with moaning; when a sudden portent appears, wondrous to tell. For between the hands and faces of his ad parents, from above the head of Iulus a light tongue of flame was seen to shed a gleam and, harmless in its touch, lick his soft locks and pasture round his temples. Trembling with alarm, we quickly shake out the blazing hair and quench with water the holy fires. But my father Anchises joyously raises his eyes to the skies and uplifts to heaven hands and voice: ‘Almighty Jupiter, if you are moved by any prayers, look upon us – this only do I ask – and if our goodness earn it, give us your aid, Father, and ratify this omen!’

[692] “Scarcely had the aged man thus spoken, when with sudden crash there was thunder on the left and a star shot from heaven, gliding through the darkness, and drawing a fiery trail amid a flood of light. We watch it glide over the palace roof and bury in Ida’s forest the splendour that marked its path; then the long-drawn furrow shines, and far and wide all about reeks of sulphur. At this, indeed, my father was overcome and, rising to his feet, salutes the gods, and worships the holy star. ‘Now, now there is no delay; I follow, and where you lead, there am I. Gods of my fathers! save my house, save my grandson. Yours is this omen, and under your protection stands Troy. Yes, I yield, and refuse not, my son, to go in your company.’ He ceased, and now through the city more loudly is heard the blaze, and nearer the flames roll their fiery flood. ‘Come then, dear father, mount upon my neck; on my own shoulders I will support you, and this task will not weigh me down. However things may fall, we two will have on common peril, one salvation. Let little Iulus come with me, and let my wife follow our steps at a distance. You servants, heed what I say. As one leaves the city, there is a mound and ancient temple of forlorn Ceres, with an old cypress hard by, saved for many years by the reverence of our fathers. To this one spot we will come from different directions. Father, take in your arms the sacred emblems of our country’s household gods; for me, fresh from fierce battle and recent slaughter, it would be sinful to handle them until I have washed myself clean in running water . . . ‘ So I spoke, and over my broad shoulders and bowed neck I spread the cover of a tawny lion’s pelt and stoop to the burden. Little Iulus clasps his hand in mine, and follows his father with steps that match not his. Behind comes my wife. We pass on amid the shadows; and I, whom of late no shower of missiles could move nor any Greeks thronging in opposing mass, now am affrighted by every breeze and startled by every sound, tremulous as I am and fearing alike for my companion and my burden."

Mount Ida: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Ida
Mount Ida, Anatolia
Main article: Mount Ida (Turkey)
See also: Iliad, Aeneid, Sibylline Books, and Cybele

From the Anatolian Mount Ida, Zeus was said to have abducted Ganymede to Olympus. The topmost peak is Gargarus, mentioned in the Iliad. Zeus was located in the Altar of Zeus (near Adatepe, Ayvacık) during the Trojan War. The modern Turkish name for Mount Ida, Turkey, is Kaz Dağı, pronounced [kaz daːɯ]. In the Aeneid, a shooting star falls onto the mountain in answer to the prayer of Anchises to Jupiter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Ida_(Turkey)

Image
Cultic significance
Cybele

In ancient times, the mountain was dedicated to the worship of Cybele, who at Rome therefore was given the epithet Idaea Mater.
Sibylline books

The oldest collection of Sibylline utterances, the Sibylline Books, appears to have been made about the time of Cyrus at Gergis on Mount Ida; it was attributed to the Hellespontine Sibyl and was preserved in the temple of Apollo at Gergis. From Gergis the collection passed to Erythrae, where it became famous as the oracles of the Erythraean Sibyl. It seems to have been this very collection, or so it would appear, which found its way to Cumae (see the Cumaean Sibyl) and from Cumae to Rome.
Mythology

Mount Ida owes much of its fame to the work of the poet Homer, gaining renown from having been mentioned in his epic poem the Iliad. It is the setting for numerous episodes in Ancient Greek myth.
Idaea

Idaea was a nymph, mate of the river god Scamander, and mother of King Teucer the Trojan king.
The Scamander River flowed from Mount Ida across the plain beneath the city of Troy, and joined the Hellespont north of the city.

Ganymede

At an earlier time, on Mount Ida, Ganymede, the son of Tros or perhaps of Laomedon, both kings of Troy,
was desired by Zeus, who descended in the form of an eagle and swept up Ganymede, to be cupbearer to the Olympian gods.

Paris

On the sacred mountain, the nymphs who were the daughter-spirits of the river Cebrenus, had their haunt,
and one, Oenone, who had the chthonic gifts of prophetic vision and the curative powers of herb magic, wed Paris, living as a shepherd on Mount Ida. Unbeknownst to all, even to himself, Paris was the son of Priam, king of Troy.
He was there on Mount Ida, experiencing the rustic education in exile of many heroes of Greek mythology,
for his disastrous future effect on Troy was foretold at his birth,
and Priam had him exposed on the sacred slopes.
When the good shepherd who was entrusted with the baby returned to bury the exposed child,
he discovered that he had been suckled by a she-bear (a totem animal of the archaic goddess Artemis)
and took the child home to be foster-nursed by his wife.

When Eris ("discord") cast the Apple of Discord, inscribed "for the fairest",
into the wedding festivities of Peleus with Thetis,
three great goddesses repaired to Mount Ida to be appraised.
By a sacred spring on the mountainside, in "the Judgment of Paris",
the grown youth Paris awarded it to Aphrodite,
who offered Helen for a bribe,
earning the perpetual enmity of the discredited goddesses Hera and Athena to the Trojan cause (Bibliotheca 3.12.5).

Anchises

Anchises, father of Aeneas, also of the Trojan royal house,
was tending sheep on Mount Ida when he was seduced by Aphrodite.
Their union led to the birth of Aeneas,
the mythological progenitor of Rome's Julio-Claudian dynasty and a founder of Rome in a tradition alternative to that of Romulus and Remus.

Trojan War

The mountain is the scene of several mythic events in the works of Homer.
At its summit, the Olympian gods gathered to watch the progress of the epic fight.
But the mountain was the sacred place of the Goddess, and Hera's powers were so magnified on Mount Ida, that she was able to distract Zeus with her seductions, just long enough to permit Poseidon to intercede on behalf of the Argives to drive Hektor and the Trojans back from the ships.

During the Trojan War, in an episode recorded in Epitome of the fourth book of the Bibliotheca,
Achilles with some of the Achaean chiefs laid waste the countryside,
and made his way to Ida to rustle the cattle of Aeneas.
But Aeneas fled, and Achilles killed the cowherds and Mestor, son of Priam, and drove away the sacred kine (Epitome 3.32).
Achilles briefly refers to this incident as he prepares to duel with Aeneas during the siege of Troy. (Iliad XX)

After the Trojan War, the only surviving son of Priam, Helenus,
retired to Mount Ida, where he was surprised and became the captive of Neoptolemus.
In the Aeneid a shooting star falls onto the mountain in answer to the prayer of Anchises to Jupiter.

Oh joy - "Iulus" and "neo-Ptrolemus"
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sat Mar 17, 2018 10:31 am

Tiompan wrote:There's a lot more to the Melaart story , fascinating stuff .

Not that it matters , but a pre announcement "interpretation" would have been slightly funnier than usual .


Untlil the autopsy of Melart's papers is undertaken,
we will no know if his notes were attempts at reading,
or notes to construct a forgery.

In any case, I'd rather be walking through Turkey than discussing the Holocene Start Impact Events with you here.
E.P. Grondine
 

Re: Luwian notes

Postby Tiompan » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:34 pm

E.P. Grondine wrote:
Untlil the autopsy of Melart's papers is undertaken,
we will no know if his notes were attempts at reading,
or notes to construct a forgery.


As I said there is a lot more to the Melaart story , the putative forgery is minor in comparison .
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Wed May 16, 2018 6:16 am

In today's news, further evidence of the effects on climate
of the disruption of the Atlantic Conveyor by the Great Atlantic Impact:

http://www.tornosnews.gr/en/greek-news/ ... reece.html
E.P. Grondine
 

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