Luwian notes

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Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:10 am

From:
http://historum.com/ancient-history/775 ... greek.html
My short answer is No: Myceneans were Greek; Lycians were Luwian.
Note in the following the confusion of the term for "King of the Lycians" with a personal name:

Originally Posted by Psellos View Post
§1 I am Warika, son of [ … ], descendant of Mukasa, (Ah)hiyawan king, [servant of] the Storm-God, [man of the Storm-God].
§2 [I], Warika, extended [(the territory of) the city of (Ah)hiyawa],
§3 [and made prosper] the (Ah)hiyawan plain through the help of the Storm-God and my paternal gods.
§4 I added horse to horse;
§5 I added army to army.
§6 indeed, the Assyrian king and all the Assyrian dynasty became (like) a father and mother to me,
§7 and (Ah)hiyawa and Assyria became a single house.
§8 indeed, I smashed [powerful] fortresses,
§9 [and I built] fortresses—eight to the east and seven <to> the west.
§10 Indeed, these places were … for the palace of the River (Land).
§11 And I, by myself, [ … ] in the land … towns [ … ]
§12 [ … all] extremely good things.


p.265 Commentary
Warika (Awariku), the subject of this inscription, is well known from Assyrian texts of the second half of the eighth century as Urikki, king of Que. in Luwian texts, he is also attested in the famous Karatepe Luwian-Phoenician bilingual inscription, authored by one of his subordinate rulers, a man called Azatiwata (see Çambel 1999, hawkins 2000: 45–68). in the Luwian version of the Kara- tepe inscription, Warika’s kingdom is called Adanawa (its inhabitants are called the Danunians in the Phoenician version). But in the Luwian version of the Çineköy inscription, Warika calls his kingdom hiyawa. The kingdom was located in southeastern Anatolia, in the region called Cilicia Tracheia/Aspera (“Rough Cilicia”) in Classical sources, and extended over much of the territory covered by the Late Bronze Age country Kizzuwatna. We do not know why Warika’s kingdom was called Adanawa in one Luwian text and hiyawa in another. But we have noted that hiyawa is simply an aphaeresized form of Ahhiyawa, and it is possible that the name reflects a migration of populations of Ahhiyawan/ Mycenaean origin from western Anatolia or the Aegean world to Cilicia at the beginning of the iron Age. if the commonly assumed link between the hittite name Ahhiyawa and the Greek Achaia is valid, then the migration theory would appear to tie in with the claim by the Greek historian herodotus (7.91) that the Cilicians were originally known as Hypachaians (“sub-Achaians”).

I am surprised to learn from today's news that only 20 people globally are familiar with Luwili.
That being the case I need to add my own commentary here.
In some early PIE languages the King is indicated by an O-U medial vowel preceding the tribal name.
Firm vowel values have been tough to establish.
Following Brown and from what I have read in general,
those vowels were scarcely distinguishable by Indo-European speakers.
The consonant values were very differnt as well.

Thus Warika is not a personal name but rather a title: King of the Lycians.
Editing the commentary we have

Wa/Lika (Awa/Liku), the King of the Lycians and the subject of this inscription,
is well known from Assyrian texts of the second half of the eighth century as U/Rikki, (the King of the Lycians) the king of Que.
In Luwian texts, the King of the Lycians is also attested in the famous Karatepe Luwian-Phoenician bilingual inscription,
authored by one of his subordinate rulers, a man called Azatiwata (see Çambel 1999, Hawkins 2000: 45–68).
In the Luwian version of the Karatepe inscription, Wa/rika’s (The King of the Lycians) kingdom is called Adanawa
(its inhabitants are called the Danunians in the Phoenician version).

But in the Luwian version of the Çineköy inscription, Warika ( The King of the Lycians) calls his kingdom hiyawa.
In Classical sources this kingdom was located in southeastern Anatolia, in the region called Cilicia Tracheia/Aspera (“Rough Cilicia”),
and extended over much of the territory covered earlier by the Late Bronze Age country Kizzuwatna.
We do not know why Warika’s ( the King of the Lycians) kingdom was called Adanawa in one Luwian text and hiyawa in another,
but we have noted that hiyawa is simply an aphaeresized form of Ahhiyawa,
and it is possible that the name reflects a migration of populations of Ahhiyawan/ Mycenaean origin from western Anatolia or the Aegean world to Cilicia at the beginning of the iron Age.
If the commonly assumed link between the Hittite name Ahhiyawa and the Greek Achaia is valid,
then the migration theory would appear to tie in with the claim by the Greek historian Herodotus (7.91)
that the Cilicians were originally known as Hypachaians (“sub-Achaians”).

end commentary begin EP -

I want to add to this that it is likely that bardic poems of the Epic Oral cycle were sung at the Sarpedonian Games
which likely led to Homer's, Hesiod's, and other bards'/poets' versions.
Sarpedon's capital is thus likely to be a very key site for understanding the Bronze Age Aegean.

If you are amazed at the 20 Luwian scholars in total globally,
You ought to see the backlog of cuneiform texts awaiting reading.
Clearly computer aids are needed to leverage the very limited human talent now available.
The old paper systems can not keep up.
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:34 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Wed Jul 26, 2017 10:34 am

Image

This is a representation of a throne. You can tell by the two lions at its base.
(Lion - phonetic value "urmah," or "ur" (initial).)

And this may be a representation of a throne room or royal tomb, based on the lions at its entrance:

Image

But note:

Image

where the lions are found with female priests (or perhaps royals).

Image

Not the paired lions again here:
Without finding an entire complex, we can not be sure if this one presents a religious, tomb, or royal structure.
This last one is un-provenienced.

Image
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:47 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Wed Jul 26, 2017 11:41 am

For all of you Raiders of the Lost Ark:

Image

Image
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:56 pm

The spiral shown here is what caught my eye:

Image

As can be seen from the seat marks on Crete, the spiral has royal connotations.
This may apply to units of measure or quality or dispersal,
but those are vast questions.

There is a better image of this rim in a paper by Hitchcock or Maier, but I can not find it.
I hope they can find the rest of the vessel.

I also noticed this image:

Image

and altogether, the archaeology of Canaan is so politically charged that I'd rather work on Crete or in Lycia.
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby Tiompan » Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:39 pm

[quote="E.P. Grondine"]The spiral shown here is what caught my eye:

As can be seen from the seat marks on Crete, the spiral has royal connotations.
This may apply to units of measure or quality or dispersal,
but those are vast questions.
/quote]

In decoration ,as with arcs , serpentiforms, lozenges , circles and other phosphene forms the spiral motif is ubiquitous spatially and temporally .
As with the other forms , when we can retrieve any "meaning" attributed to the symbol from ethnography
we find it can mean a multitude of things to different artists or cultures .They can also mean different things to the same artist or culture and they can also be simple decoration .
Last edited by Tiompan on Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby Simon21 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:53 am

Sorry seems like a load of whiffle piffle. A spiral design might mean any numb er of things or nothing
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby Minimalist » Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:46 am

I frequently draw them while some asshole in tech support has me on hold.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: Luwian notes

Postby Tiompan » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:01 pm

Minimalist wrote:I frequently draw them while some asshole in tech support has me on hold.


Like most of the phosphene forms, and many of the motifs found in abstract rock art , they are much the same content as found in adult doodles and also those of young children before developing a culture specific style .
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby kbs2244 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:10 pm

Does it matter if they go clockwise or counter-clockwise?
Has it ever been studied?

What about yours?
Are you right or left handed?
Does it matter?

Inquiring minds want to know.
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby Tiompan » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:25 pm

kbs2244 wrote:Does it matter if they go clockwise or counter-clockwise?
Has it ever been studied?


There was one study from the 90's in British and Irish spirals in Rock art .
The findings were RH = 52% LH= 48 % .
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Mon Jul 31, 2017 10:27 am

Okay, guys, here's a few spirals:

THE PHAESTOS DISK

Image

Image


Using Laroche's values for "Hittite" Hieroglyphics:

SIDE 1 -
I.
[?]
[1. I] I
[181. Turpi] give
[?]
[?]
[327 seal] seal (swear)
.
II.
the boundaries?
[299. throne] (of this) kingdom
[327. seal] sealed ( are sworn for)
[326. writing] (by this) writing

III.
[1. I] I
[356. lords] (the) lords
[BATON?] I order?
[2. I myself]

IV.
[?]
[?]
the boundaries?

V.
porpoise - sailing time?
[225. city] (this) city
[58. with] with
[181. turpi] gifts

VI.
[480. you will] you will
[BATON?] I command
[245. building] (this) building
[370. sanctify] sanctify

VII.
[CLUB?] by the killing
[3. pronoun] (of a) man
[153. imperative] you will
porpoise - at sailing time?

VIII.
[286. associated with gods] to a god or to the gods
[327. seal] sealed (sworn)
[CLUB] the killing
[3. pronoun] a man
[245. building] for this building

IX.
[?]
[356. the lords] the lords
[193 month] (in the month) month
name of month= sailing ship?

X.
[327. seal] are sealed (sworn)
[225. city] (for this) city
[?]
[326. write] by this writing

XI.
[1. I] I
[108. abundance] (an) abundance
[160. wine] (of) wine
[?]

XII.
for the boundaries?
name of month,sailing ship
[189. spirit] by (the) spirit
[3. pronoun] of a man

XIII.
[LION - urmah] the king
[225. city]
[225. city] of this great city
[58. with] with
[326. write] this writing

XIV.
[280. you will] you will
YOKE - rule
[245 building] (this) building

XV.
[LION - urmah] the king
temporal - porpoise - sailing season?
[3. pronoun] him

XVI.
[4. goddess] goddess
[326. writing] by this writing
[13. priests] (you) priests
[153. imperative] you will
temporal - porpoise - sailing season?

XVII.
[1. I] I
[?]
the boundaries?
[3. pronoun] for them? him?

XVIII.
[LION urmah] the king
[160. wine] wine
[327. seal] sealed - (is sworn)
[41. give] (to) give

IXX.
[LION urmah] the king
[41 give] (will) give
CLUB a human sacrifice? war powers?

XX.
[LION urmah] the king
[299. throne] (of this) kingdom
[327. seal] sealed (is sworn)

XXI.
[?]
[LION urmah] the king
[160. wine] (libations of) wine
[327. seal] sealed (is sworn)
[41. give] to give

XXII.
the boundaries?
[?]
[Baton] I command
ship - name of month?

XXIII.
[327. seal] sealed (sworn)
[245. building] building
[326. writing] (by this) writing

XXIV.
[327. seal] sealed (sworn)
[299. throne] (this) kingdom
[327. seal] sealed (is sworn)

XXV.
[327. seal] sealed (sworn)
[BATON] I command
[245. building] (the) building
[225. city] (of this) city

XXVI.
[?]
[LION urmah] the king
[160. wine] wine
[327. seal] sealed ( is sworn)
[41. give] (to) give

XXVII.
[?]
[110. ram] (A) ram
[153. imperative] you will
[245. building] (for this) building
[327. seal] sealed (is sworn)

XXVIII.
[1. I] I
[4. goddess] (for the) goddess
[36. write] (by this) writing
BATON - order
[327. seal] sealed (it sworn)

XXIX.
[LION - urmah] the king
[?]
BATON - I command

XXX.
[299. throne] (this) kingdom
[327. seal] sealed (is sworn)


SIDE 2
XXXI.
[?]
[1. I] I
[181. turpi] give
CLUB - the death
[3. pronoun] of a man
[245. building] (for this) building

XXXII.
[255. city] (for this) city
[?]
[181. turpi] give

XXXIII.
[lion urmah] the king
[299. throne] (of this) kingdom
[327 seal] sealed (is sworn)

XXXIV.
[LION urmah]
[LION urmah] the great king
[?]

XXXV.
[1. I] I
[181. turpi] give
a prisoner
[?]
porpoise - sailing time?

XXXVI.
the boundaries?
[299. throne] (of this) kingdom
[327. seal] sealed (sworn)
[181. turpi] give

XXXVII.
the limits
[103. Deer God] (to the) Deer God
[41. give] give

XXXVIII.
[1. I] I
[181. turpi] give
[4. goddess] (to the) goddess
[245. building] building
[193. month] month

IXL.
hallucinogenic mushrooms? (mushroom under wing)
[108. abundance] abundantly
[326. writing] (by this) writing

XL.
[1. I] I
[181. turpi] give
[87. eleves - the nobles] nobles
[65. place] place (establish)
[326. writing] (by this) writing

XLI.
[3. pronoun] for them
[87. nobles] the nobles
[?]
[327. seal] sealed (sworn)

XLII.
[1. I] I
[181. turpi] give
[133. priests] priests
BATON command
[189. spirot] spirit

XLIII.
[153. imperative] You will
[?]

XLIV.
[1 I] I
the boundaries
ship- temporal?
FEATHER judge?
BATON command
[245. building] building

XLV.
hoof?
[3. pronoun]

XLVI.
[[1. I] I
[181. tur] give
hallucinogenic mushrooms? (mushroom under wing)
[108. abundance] abundance

LVII.
[1. I] I
[181 turpi] give
the boundaries

LVIII.
the boundaries
[326. write] (by this) writing
[356. the lords] the lords
[239., 464. gate] (of the) gate

LX.
CLUB - kill
[3. pronoun] a man

LXI.
FEATHER - judge
[10. man] a man's
[189. spirit] spirit

Not carefully the headdress of glyph 1, which is clearly Philistine.
It is likely that carved ivory stamps were used to inscribe the Phaestos Disk,
but whether they were of local manufacture or not is unknown.
Pallu-ili was among the languages spoken in the Hittite Empire, but whether these were identical with the Greek Pelasgasians is not known.

[In this context the Ancient Near Eastern practice of cutting off the hands of prisoners of war
may be relevant.]

THE MAVRO SPELIO RING

Image

As can be seen from the seat marks on Crete, the spiral has royal associations.

As I mentioned elsewhere here, Dr. Brown's Linear A phonetic values await computer analysis of their phonetic loading.
(it is currently not known if the aspirates attach to the vowels or consonants.)
An attempted reading of this ring by Best. likely to be incorrect because he did not use Brown's values:
http://www.talanta.nl/wp-content/upload ... -17-26.pdf

SEAT MARK AT PHAESTOS

Seat Mark at Phaestos (click on link to view):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0lgsdle9avq30 ... K.jpg?dl=0

note the distortions caused by overloading of Fletcher's computer.

STRUCTURE AT KNOSSOS

The seat mark at Knossos was effaced, or improperly reconstructed.

But there is this nice structure to the north of the palace (click on link to view):

https://db.tt/qQYfpuN1et


THE MAGLIANO INSCRIPTION

Image

Image

Using Pallottino's values (with extreme agglutinization):

Ca [demonstrative pronoun] this
uthas - is given
tuthiu - for the state
avils - for years
80 - 80

ez - (pronoun)
Ximthm - Xia pronoun - for them

casthIlth:
ca - pronoun - I
sat - judge
al pronoun -them
thi - to give
lacthi- as king here

hevn:
hec - to send
vn - wine

avil- year(ly)
nesl - (to the) dead person('s)
man - spirit
murinaSie:
mur - living+?
falzathi - in the sky there

aiseras - with the gods
in
eca - that
mene - place

mlaPcemari:
mla - a gift
Pce - to Bachus
marni - (by the) magistrate

tuthi - (for the) state

tiu - (every) month

Ximthm:
Xia - pronoun - for them
casialth:
Ca - I command
sat - to be given
thi - imperative

lacthi - as king here

MariSL
maru - magistrate

menitle:
men - offer
afrs - ancestors

cialath:
ca (pronoun) I
sat - command
al given
th (imperative)

Xithm:
Xia - for them
avils - years
10 - (every) 10

eca - this
cepen - priests
tuthiu - the state
thux - in the month of Thux

iXu tevr:
iX - and
tev - they judge
hesNi:
hec - envoy
sni - san a spirit
Mulveni:
on account of this
(mul) vow

et (pronoun) this
zuci - offering
am- is
ar - to be made

mlaX/thanra:
mlak - a gift
thanra - for the founders
Calus/c
to the god Calus + and

ecnial
ca - pronoun - each
V - 5
avil - years

mi - I
menicac - men - give
marcalurcac:
maru - magistrate
Calus - of the god Calus

eth (pronoun) this
tuthiu - for the state
nesl - a dead person's
man - spirit

rivaX - riv+aX - judge + locative = the place of judgement
leScem - to die
tnucasi - tanasa - foundation

IN sum, 2,000 years of foundation rituals.
The spirals on the pottery may indicate quantity, quality,
or simply serve as "tax stamps".
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:32 am, edited 47 times in total.
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby kbs2244 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:26 pm

So, do I read that to say that it seems to depend in the sex of the subject?
The percentages seem about right.
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby Tiompan » Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:13 pm

kbs2244 wrote:So, do I read that to say that it seems to depend in the sex of the subject?
The percentages seem about right.


Not for me. It smacks of structuralism .

Roughly 50:50 could also depend on many roughly even splits/binaries . Winter /summer . Republican /democrat . Sun /moon .
The figure omits context , which could be a factor in deciding in which direction the the spiral will go. e.g. top / bottom ,north /south , east /west of section of the panel that the engraving is found ,the need for balance i.e.
a motif similar to that found on spectacle fibulae where clockwise and anti clockwise spirals form either side . The relationship with other unmentioned motifs etc.
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby kbs2244 » Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:42 pm

So,
Maybe on the wife's mood that morning?
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby Tiompan » Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:29 pm

kbs2244 wrote:So,
Maybe on the wife's mood that morning?


Why not ,in some cases ? particularly is she was the engraver .
Or another among the myriad of possibilities .
And of course what might apply to one area and period might be entirely different to another period and place .
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