Gobekli tepi, Comet Impact, and the Younger Dryas

The Old World is a reference to those parts of Earth known to Europeans before the voyages of Christopher Columbus; it includes Europe, Asia and Africa.

Moderators: Minimalist, MichelleH

Re: leRe: Gobekli tepi, Comet Impact, and the Younger Dryas

Postby Tiompan » Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:39 am

E.P. Grondine wrote:Here is the excavation teams' comment:

https://tepetelegrams.wordpress.com/201 ... e-aurochs/


About time , I thought they might have just ignored it as not worth commenting on . Although they have only covered one aspect of the nonsense .

"I admire very much the excavation teams' invitation to the Edinborough group to contact them -
perhaps that will lead to some really skilled archaeo-astronomers, of which there is a real shortage now."

You won't get that from the Edinburgh team , for the obvious reasons mentioned here earlier .

" why so much effort would be made into carving symbols that would soon be buried and not visible,"
To be brief ,in general , most rock art that we are aware of has been uncovered .In many cases it was obvious to the engravers that it would be covered eventually .
Most obvious are the large number of examples in caves and sealed monuments ,and to a lesser extent bedrock that would be known to be easily covered by vegetation and earth .The intended audience was not necessarily the engraver's contemporaries never mind observers millenia later .
Some rock art is obvious and and probably intended to be viewed by anyone who happened to be passing , and because open air RA on boulders walls etc. is easier to find , the percentage of finds compared with the hidden RA will always be misleading .
There are intermediate cases and Gobekli is probably one of these i.e. those where the engravings were intended to be seen by at least a limited audience and the fact that they might be covered in the future wouldn't have occurred to the engravers or it didn't matter .
Tiompan
 
Posts: 791
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:13 am

Re: Gobekli tepi, Comet Impact, and the Younger Dryas

Postby shawomet » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:50 am

There is indeed a great deal wrong with that paper. That will teach me not to screen and examine such things much closer before letting it see the light of day, lol...

Here is a critical look from The Daily Grail, a website I've always enjoyed and respected:

http://www.dailygrail.com/Hidden-Histor ... tastrophic

And Jason Colavito rips into the paper on his blog...

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/acade ... llins-book
shawomet
 
Posts: 308
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:14 am

Re: Gobekli tepi, Comet Impact, and the Younger Dryas

Postby Tiompan » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:30 am

shawomet wrote:There is indeed a great deal wrong with that paper. That will teach me not to screen and examine such things much closer before letting it see the light of day, lol...


It's not your fault that it was rubbish . They should be highlighted , people believe that crap .

Not sure about the time (compared with UK time ) of Jason's article but I think the earliest criticism was here .
He doesn't go into much detail apart from the association with Collins and Hancock which, quite rightly , guarantees alarm bells and large doses of salt .
Tiompan
 
Posts: 791
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:13 am

Re: Gobekli tepi, Comet Impact, and the Younger Dryas

Postby Minimalist » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:04 am

perhaps the structures at Gobekli Tepe served as blast shelters
as one of their roles.


Or Jai Alai frontons? Maybe the good citizens of Gobekli Tepi got together every week to watch Jai Alai?

Really. Some guy looks at a rock and treats it as a Rorschach Test seeing exactly what he wants to see.

The comet theory has been in trouble for quite a while, now.

https://psmag.com/comet-theory-comes-cr ... e9056e29db

But now, four years after the purportedly supportive evidence was reported, a host of scientific authorities systematically have made the case that the comet theory is “bogus.” Researchers from multiple scientific fields are calling the theory one of the most misguided ideas in the history of modern archaeology, which begs for an independent review so an accurate record is reflected in the literature.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

-- George Carlin
Minimalist
 
Posts: 15402
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:09 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Gobekli tepi, Comet Impact, and the Younger Dryas

Postby Tiompan » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:22 am

Minimalist wrote: Some guy looks at a rock and treats it as a Rorschach Test seeing exactly what he wants to see.



Sounds like "the Boxer " .
Tiompan
 
Posts: 791
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:13 am

Re: Gobekli tepi, Comet Impact, and the Younger Dryas

Postby E.P. Grondine » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:13 am

Minimalist wrote:
perhaps the structures at Gobekli Tepe served as blast shelters
as one of their roles.


Or Jai Alai frontons? Maybe the good citizens of Gobekli Tepi got together every week to watch Jai Alai?

Really. Some guy looks at a rock and treats it as a Rorschach Test seeing exactly what he wants to see.

The comet theory has been in trouble for quite a while, now.

https://psmag.com/comet-theory-comes-cr ... e9056e29db

But now, four years after the purportedly supportive evidence was reported, a host of scientific authorities systematically have made the case that the comet theory is “bogus.” Researchers from multiple scientific fields are calling the theory one of the most misguided ideas in the history of modern archaeology, which begs for an independent review so an accurate record is reflected in the literature.


Hi min -

Another day in the mines, as we fight for real money (100's of millions of $) to deal with the asteroid and comet impact hazard.

Boslough is really second rate. If he were any good, he'd be working at Los Alamos or elsewhere.
And it is very fortunate for your's truly that he is,
or he would have spotted the production of fast neutrons in large hyper-velocity impacts:

Watch my little video here and get back to us:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbM4vHc ... Ofte_O_Rhp

What is so powerful about this is that the peaks are easy to document with current technologies,
and are so large as to be unmistakable.

In other news, fortunately there is a new, cheap and indisputable geological test to confirm the Holocene Start Impact Events:
and that is the concentrations of Platinum Group Elements (PGE) in the excavated strata.
There is no other way that they could show up there other than by impact.

Its hard to accept that you, everyone you know or love, and everything you've done in your life could disappear in an instant,
with you not even having tie to kiss your ass goodbye;
but unless we improve our detection systems, that is the way it is.
Despite the explicit conclusions (moans of protest) of NASA's small body advisory group,
NEOcam still awaits launch, as it has for the last 12 years.
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
User avatar
E.P. Grondine
 
Posts: 1844
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:36 am

Re: leRe: Gobekli tepi, Comet Impact, and the Younger Dryas

Postby E.P. Grondine » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:17 am

Tiompan wrote:
E.P. Grondine wrote:Here is the excavation teams' comment:

https://tepetelegrams.wordpress.com/201 ... e-aurochs/


About time , I thought they might have just ignored it as not worth commenting on .
Although they have only covered one aspect of the nonsense .


E.P. Grondine wrote:"I admire very much the excavation teams' invitation to the Edinborough group to contact them -
perhaps that will lead to some really skilled archaeo-astronomers, of which there is a real shortage now."



Tiompan wrote:You won't get that from the Edinburgh team , for the obvious reasons mentioned here earlier .


Perhaps the Cambridge or Oxford archaeo-astronomers will take it up then.
Or the Canadian. Or the German.
Besides the languages mentioned by the excavation team, there are also Assyrian, Hittite, Hurrian, and Akkadian.
And that is just to get possible constellations.

"why so much effort would be made into carving symbols that would soon be buried and not visible,"

Tiompan wrote:To be brief, in general, most rock art that we are aware of has been uncovered.


On the pillars, tiompan, by the people who carved them.

Tiompan wrote:In many cases it was obvious to the engravers that it would be covered eventually .


Yes, I agree with you entirely there.
So the question remains why the original carvers spent so much time on carvings they knew would SOON be covered up.
We are dealing with a very ancient magical thinking,
which should have a logic all its own, and a very internally consistent one.

Tiompan wrote:Most obvious are the large number of examples in caves and sealed monuments,and to a lesser extent bedrock that would be known to be easily covered by vegetation and earth.


Whoa, hold on there: we know that cave shrines were re-visited at the times of their creation.

Tiompan wrote:The intended audience was not necessarily the engraver's contemporaries never mind observers millenia later.


I don't think your analogy of Gobekli Tepe with cave shrines works very well, tiompan.

Tiompan wrote:Some rock art is obvious and and probably intended to be viewed by anyone who happened to be passing , and because open air RA on boulders walls etc. is easier to find , the percentage of finds compared with the hidden RA will always be misleading.


RA=Right Ascension, tiompan?

Therein lies a part of the problem, tiompan.
Why did the builders build them and bury them in such short time periods?
Death of a leader of some sort,
shifting skies,
or something else?

Oh the joys of analyzing magical thinking at distances of 13,000 to 15,000 years ago.

Tiompan wrote:There are intermediate cases and Gobekli is probably one of these i.e.:
those where the engravings were intended to be seen by at least a limited audience
and the fact that they might be covered in the future wouldn't have occurred to the engravers or it didn't matter .


"Magical thinking" has an internally consistent logic, tiompan.
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:18 am, edited 6 times in total.
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
User avatar
E.P. Grondine
 
Posts: 1844
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:36 am

Re: leRe: Gobekli tepi, Comet Impact, and the Younger Dryas

Postby Tiompan » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:33 am

E.P. Grondine wrote:
On the pillars, tiompan.


The pillars were uncovered too E.P. .
Tiompan
 
Posts: 791
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:13 am

Re: leRe: Gobekli tepi, Comet Impact, and the Younger Dryas

Postby E.P. Grondine » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:55 am

Tiompan wrote:
E.P. Grondine wrote:
On the pillars, tiompan.


The pillars were uncovered too E.P. .


Not all of them yet, tiompan.
There is a long way to go on this site,
and then you have the quarries.

And other nearby PPN B sites.

Decades of work.
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
User avatar
E.P. Grondine
 
Posts: 1844
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:36 am

Re: Gobekli tepi, Comet Impact, and the Younger Dryas

Postby E.P. Grondine » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:14 am

Clearly I need to return to this analysis:

NOTE C especially:

Image

C looks to me to be two sighting stone circles, with a comet shown nearby.

The ant(?) at the bottom may be raising a stone.
This is the first time I have seen an ant(?) symbol in this area.

The obverse may represent a meteor storm, the Draconids, or the Taurids,
or some other meteor storm.

It appears there is disagreement on which ends are up:
Image

It is very strange that the builders had a concept of themselves as ANTS,
working on an anthill.

Now one possibility is that the structures were re-built in response to the death of a priest or priestess.

Another is that in a large comet breakup in Near Earth Orbit,
periodically a series of multiple Tunguska class blasts will take place.
Once again: these will occur on a periodic basis entirely dependent on
the orbital mechanics of the stream that exists after the breakup.

Inscribed tool A appears to be easily understood-
a wobbling spear,
a game animal,
and a sign for death, the vulture.
Entirely appropriate for a spear shaft straightener.

Thus it is likely that the signs on plaque C have some internal consistency as well.
In other words, collectively they "say"something.
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
User avatar
E.P. Grondine
 
Posts: 1844
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:36 am

Re: leRe: Gobekli tepi, Comet Impact, and the Younger Dryas

Postby Tiompan » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:30 am

The distinction was obvious , it is between RA that is is easily noticed and therefore has much wider potential audience and RA that has much more limited potential audience , not the superficial type of monument whether cave , bedrock ,wall , boulder or tell .

You don't need to be much of an archaeoastronomer to find the errors in Collins and the Edinburgh team ,although you do have to know a bit .
What archaeoastronomers from Cambridge or Oxford ? Did you notice any mention from any of them about the problems ,whoever they may be ?
Tiompan
 
Posts: 791
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:13 am

Re: Gobekli tepi, Comet Impact, and the Younger Dryas

Postby Tiompan » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:32 am

E.P. Grondine wrote:Clearly I need to return to this analysis:


It's just another over interpretation that tells us more about the interpreter than the data .
Tiompan
 
Posts: 791
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:13 am

Re: Gobekli tepi, Comet Impact, and the Younger Dryas

Postby E.P. Grondine » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:46 pm

Tiompan wrote:
E.P. Grondine wrote:Clearly I need to return to this analysis:


It's just another over interpretation that tells us more about the interpreter than the data.


Hi, tiompan -

The data of those inscribed objects, including plaque C, are what they are.
I think that I am not being overly biased in my comments on them,
in the context of the times when they were made,
and their usage.

I'll let you in on a little secret:
Among the serious researchers of the impact hazard,
there is no agreement on whether the Holocene Start Impact Events impactor
was Comet Encke, or an entirely different comet.

Like you, I am not satisfied with the Edinburgh paper,
but for entirely different reasons.
Estimating the rate of comet injection into the inner solar system
is deadly serious work,
and this paper is not sufficiently researched.

BTW, every meteor shower which we now enjoy watching in our night skies
MAY initially have been accompanied by larger fragments, some of which
MAY have impacted the Earth.
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
User avatar
E.P. Grondine
 
Posts: 1844
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:36 am

Re: Gobekli tepi, Comet Impact, and the Younger Dryas

Postby Tiompan » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:24 am

E.P. Grondine wrote:
The data of those inscribed objects, including plaque C, are what they are.
I think that I am not being overly biased in my comments on them,
in the context of the times when they were made,
and their usage.

It happens all the time the most common motifs in rock art from all periods and in all parts of the world get over interpreted by those with little knowledge of rock art but do have an agenda .The over interpretations suits suit their interests whilst ignoring that bias ,context , the corpus , ethnography and the what serious researchers have to say . Most researchers just shrug their shoulders and ignore it .
We have covered the motifs a few times now .
“Look at what you omitted from the site from which you linked the pics .The author suggests “I can tell you that the strange loops with dots in them on stone c look like humans depicted from above in Australian Aboriginal art. The ‘u’ shapes represent the legs or arms of someone sitting cross legged on the ground, and the dot inside the head.”
That is as good as place to start as any , in that it is unlikely anyone is going to depict the Draconids in the southern hemisphere ,further we have the ethnography of producers of the symbols to tell us their meaning and they never mention the Draconids ,probably because they are not as visible as other showers like the Quadrantids ,which are not deoicted either .
One of the classics of Australian symbolism is Nancy D .Munn’s “Walibiri Iconography :Graphic Representation and cultural symbolism in a cenrtral Australian society “ The arcs ,which are found in nearly all areas where rock art is to be found usually represent actors , often human but they can be animals e.g. oppossums , the dots can represent head as she suggests or increase i.e. plularity . Exactly the same symbol complete with ethnographic explalantion and with no possibility of the the interpration being the Draconids . Arcs and dots are some of the basic forms used world wide in rock art and symbols ,they can represent many things depending on the culture that is doing the representing .
the point is that you can make up any old BS and suggest what you like but some things are going to be much less likely than others .
One point about Pareidolia is that it tells us much more about the person ,and their obsessions , doing the "interpreting " than the actual subject . “
“We have been over the interpretation of these markings before ,as is often the case the “interpretation”, like a rorschach test ,
tells us more about the personal obsessions of the interpreter than the actual markings .
What you see as a comet is a phosphene form and one of the most common symbols used in rock art and prehistoric engravings the world over .
It’s present on all four of the stone objects ,and ,as is also common there are often multiple examples together .In this case two of the stones have three ,but often there are many more .
It is usually referred as a serpentiform or when more angular simply a zig zag , neither of which look like a comet or are similar to actual depictions of comets .In some cases they may
represent a serpent /snake but there are countless other interpretations from different cultures e.g. water ,life force ,smoke , lightning etc and very often it is purely decorative .
As noted earlier there is a similar explanation for the arcs ,which are also phosphenes ,found all over the world in all periods of rock art and
have multiple possible explanations including ethnographic ones which don’t mention meteor showers . “

Still no mention of names for the Oxford and Cambridge archaeoastronomers who were silent on the Edinburgh nonsense .
Tiompan
 
Posts: 791
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 5:13 am

Re: Gobekli tepi, Comet Impact, and the Younger Dryas

Postby shawomet » Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:32 am

Minimalist wrote:
perhaps the structures at Gobekli Tepe served as blast shelters
as one of their roles.


Or Jai Alai frontons? Maybe the good citizens of Gobekli Tepi got together every week to watch Jai Alai?

Really. Some guy looks at a rock and treats it as a Rorschach Test seeing exactly what he wants to see.

The comet theory has been in trouble for quite a while, now.

https://psmag.com/comet-theory-comes-cr ... e9056e29db

But now, four years after the purportedly supportive evidence was reported, a host of scientific authorities systematically have made the case that the comet theory is “bogus.” Researchers from multiple scientific fields are calling the theory one of the most misguided ideas in the history of modern archaeology, which begs for an independent review so an accurate record is reflected in the literature.


Yeah, I agree with E.P. on this. The article you link to is from 2011, and the latest study points to that platinum enriched layer. I've collected meteorites since the early 80's, and so have learned a little about the composition of extraterrestrial samples, and I would love to hear how the platinum layer can be explained without invoking an extraterrestrial impactor. I'm no authority in the least, but I have not yet heard an alternative explanation for that enriched platinum layer. I honestly felt that latest study involving platinum might actually be the smoking gun in favor of impact, but, as noted, I'm no authority.....
shawomet
 
Posts: 308
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:14 am

PreviousNext

Return to Old World

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron