Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Tiompan » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:33 pm

[q

"X mt DNA showing up again, but this time in coastal Europe, and not North America."

Nothing strange about finding x in coastal Europe .
Similarly nothing strange in finding it inland at Atapuerca either , it is after all very widespread , the authors of the papaer were not surprised and even mentions it's findings in NBQ
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby E.P. Grondine » Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:27 am

Tiompan wrote:
Nothing strange about finding x in coastal Europe .
Similarly nothing strange in finding it inland at Atapuerca either, it is after all very widespread, the authors of the paper were not surprised and even mentions it's findings in NBQ


Yes, X mt DNA does indeed have an interesting distribution.

Does "NBQ" stand for New Brunswick/Quebec"?
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Tiompan » Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:01 am

NBQ = Neolithic Basque country (and Navarre )
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:18 am

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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Tiompan » Sat Sep 19, 2015 3:57 pm

If the plaque does represent pillars then it does not represent the configuration of central pillars at any of the enclosures at GT , as can been readily seen by looking at the relative positions of the pillars in fig 9 , in the article , or indeed in any pictures of the pillars ,i.e. the pillars face each other whilst the plaque has them alongside each other .
The “stickman “ and the “hole “ require more than lot of faith , although anyone who can read Collins without laughing will have plenty of that .
None of this has any impact on the numerous problems associated with the putataive Deneb /Cygnus alignment nonsense highlighted earlier
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sun Sep 20, 2015 3:47 pm

Tiompan wrote:If the plaque does represent pillars then it does not represent the configuration of central pillars at any of the enclosures at GT , as can been readily seen by looking at the relative positions of the pillars in fig 9 , in the article , or indeed in any pictures of the pillars ,i.e. the pillars face each other whilst the plaque has them alongside each other .
The “stickman “ and the “hole “ require more than lot of faith , although anyone who can read Collins without laughing will have plenty of that .
None of this has any impact on the numerous problems associated with the putataive Deneb /Cygnus alignment nonsense highlighted earlier



Image

It is what it is.

It would be nice to have the rest of it, or another few of them.

Of course I do not have to mention the Meso-American interest in the cleft of the Milky Way to you.
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sun Sep 20, 2015 4:59 pm

For comparative purposes:

Image

C looks to me to be two sighting stone circles, with a comet shown nearby.

The ant(?) at the bottom may be raising a stone.
This is the first time I have seen an ant(?) symbol in this area.

The obverse may represent a meteor storm, the Draconids.

It appears there is disagreement on which ends are up:
Image
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Tiompan » Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:25 am

We have been over the interpretation of these markings before ,as is often the case the “interpretation”, like a rorschach test ,
tells us more about the personal obsessions of the interpreter than the actual markings .
What you see as a comet is a phosphene form and one of the most common symbols used in rock art and prehistoric engravings the world over .
It’s present on all four of the stone objects ,and ,as is also common there are often multiple examples together .In this case two of the stones have three ,but often there are many more .
It is usually referred as a serpentiform or when more angular simply a zig zag , neither of which look like a comet or are similar to actual depictions of comets .In some cases they may
represent a serpent /snake but there are countless other interpretations from different cultures e.g. water ,life force ,smoke , lightning etc and very often it is purely decorative .
As noted earlier there is a similar explanation for the arcs ,which are also phosphenes ,found all over the world in all periods of rock art and
have multiple possible explanations including ethnographic ones which don’t mention meteor showers .
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby E.P. Grondine » Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:07 am

Tiompan wrote:We have been over the interpretation of these markings before ,as is often the case the “interpretation”, like a rorschach test , tells us more about the personal obsessions of the interpreter than the actual markings .


I believe that both of us can agree that the ivory plaque is a representation of one of these ritual structures.

We differ on whether stone plaque C is another representation of one of these ritual structures, and what the image on the reverse of it represents, or whether the image on the reverse of it represents anything at all.

As far as "obsessions" goes, for some reason, you continue to insist that the ancient sky was the same as that seen today, when there is a mass of very concrete physical evidence that that was not so.

I am very familiar with the psychological mechanisms used to support denial.

Most of Richard Kieninger's victims have developed excellent sets of them.

As a matter of fact, all of my neighbors living in Kempton, Illinois have developed them as well.
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Tiompan » Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:34 am

“I believe that both of us can agree that the ivory plaque is a representation of one of these ritual structures. “

It is not what Collins describes it as . The configuration is wrong in respect to the pillars and there is no hole ,and even if the mark was a hole it is in the wrong place , look at where holed stones are found in relation to the pillars , moreover there are examples of holed stones which are 90 degrees from a rough N-S line and then there is the non existent “observer “ .



“We differ on whether stone plaque C is another representation of one of these ritual structures, and what the image on the reverse of it represents, or whether the image on the reverse of it represents anything at all.”

Differ entirely .Like all over interpretations the interpretation tells us more about the interpreters obsessions than what is being interpreted .

As far as "obsessions" goes, for some reason, you continue to insist that the ancient sky was the same as that seen today, when there is a mass of very concrete physical evidence that that was not so. “
Where is this insistence ? Why didn’t you quote where I said anything like what you describe ? you just made that up .You also ignored the simpler explanations for the markings .
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby E.P. Grondine » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:09 am

Tiompan wrote:
“I believe that both of us can agree that the ivory plaque is a representation of one of these ritual structures. “

It is not what Collins describes it as . The configuration is wrong in respect to the pillars and there is no hole ,and even if the mark was a hole it is in the wrong place , look at where holed stones are found in relation to the pillars , moreover there are examples of holed stones which are 90 degrees from a rough N-S line and then there is the non existent “observer “ .


There are holed stones that exist.

I do not speak for Collins, and have not read his book on Gobekli Tepe yet.

That said,To my knowledge Collins was the first to point out that these holed stones at Gobekli Tepe have parallels in other megalithic strucutures,
and to provide ethnographic information on them.

The ivory plaque exists as well, and it appears to show a figure in relation to the pillars.

There have also been stone rings found at PPN B sites.

We do not know whether the megatlithic structures at Gobleklie Tepe were henges or enclosures,
or both at different points during their lifetime of use.

Tiompan wrote:“We differ on whether stone plaque C is another representation of one of these ritual structures, and what the image on the reverse of it represents, or whether the image on the reverse of it represents anything at all.”

Differ entirely .Like all over interpretations the interpretation tells us more about the interpreters obsessions than what is being interpreted .


Everyone has their own point of view based on their life experiences.
Occasionally the data is so strong that it is able to change interpretations.

please read:
http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/mich ... ernet.html

Tiompan wrote:As far as "obsessions" goes, for some reason, you continue to insist that the ancient sky was the same as that seen today, when there is a mass of very concrete physical evidence that that was not so. “
Where is this insistence ? Why didn’t you quote where I said anything like what you describe ? you just made that up .You also ignored the simpler explanations for the markings .


please read:
http://michaelprescott.typepad.com/mich ... ernet.html

While it is very comforting to believe in a G*d who set up a clockwork universe for mankind's benefit
(in other words Deism, or intelligent design),
suppose that the real situation is that we live in a semi-structured chaotic universe.

Suppose that there is absolute evil that existed and exists.

Suppose that for a minute...

Now suppose that people exist who are so caught up in their own BS that they will endanger other peoples lives.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3656
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3668
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Tiompan » Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:34 am

“That said,To my knowledge Collins was the first to point out that these holed stones at Gobekli Tepe have parallels in other megalithic strucutures,
and to provide ethnographic information on them.”
The presence of holed stones in prehistoric megalithic monuments has been common knowledge to anyone who knows about the subject , long before the discovery of GT .
There is no reliable ethnography related to prehistoric monuments .

“The ivory plaque exists as well, and it appears to show a figure in relation to the pillars. “
Only to the extremely gullible .

“There have also been stone rings found at PPN B sites. “
See above

“We do not know whether the megatlithic structures at Gobleklie Tepe were henges or enclosures, or both at different points during their lifetime of use. “

Gt was not a henge ,see previous mentions and check the definition of henge . They were obviously enclosures .

I asked you to provide an example/quote of what you called my " insistence ", you failed to do so .
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby E.P. Grondine » Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:30 pm

Tiompan wrote:
“The ivory plaque exists as well, and it appears to show a figure in relation to the pillars. “

Only to the extremely gullible .

“There have also been stone rings found at PPN B sites. “

See above



Yes indeed - See above.
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby E.P. Grondine » Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:04 am

Hi George -

Collin's 2014 book came in at the local library, and it was a pretty good read.
He detailed his interactions with Schmidt very openly, completely, and truthfully

While I preferred Lake Urmiah in Iran as "Eden", and believe it to be an area of extremely high interest for archaeological study, Collins new observatons about "Eden's" are persuasive.

I still disagree about his evolutionary schema, and I am pretty sure that the Black Sea area is the locus from which both technologies and X mt DNA spread.

I did not know that bows and arrows appeared so early in Europe,
and I was particularly happy to learn about the new early dates for Francthi Cave, 13,000 BCE.

I am looking forward to reading Collins' collection of Cygnus lore.
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