Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby E.P. Grondine » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:15 pm

well, simon, I like to try to establish locations and chronology, and work from there.

I still think deconstructing Adomnan's Life of Columba into its sources is a good way of attacking his problem.
There is also a Prophatio Merlini which appears top be a"translation" of an Anglo-Saxon writing into Welsh to work through.
I treid to find Dark via google, but could not.
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby E.P. Grondine » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:25 pm

And just to bring this back to wood henges and stone henges

Sacred pool ringed by totem poles in Scotland's ritual glen {TOTEM POLES?!!!!]

An early Bronze Age timber circle containing an inner ring of totem poles set around a deep, sacred pool is thought to have once stood at the head of the Kilmartin Valley in Argyll, site of one of Scotland's richest concentrations of prehistoric ritual monuments.

Post-excavation analysis of the pits and postholes found when the site was excavated in the 1990s (BA November 1997) has concluded that the timber circle was far more unusual than was initially thought. The circle stood on a terrace overlooking the valley; and at its heart was a large hollow nearly 7 metres wide and 2 metres deep. Now full of peat, the hollow must have contained standing water over a long period of time.

Around this pool was an inner ring of post-holes, thought to have once held totems. At the base of one was a cremation burial under a stone. From the outer ring of 30 oak posts, some 47 metres in diameter, a timber-lined processional avenue appears to have snaked down to the valley floor.

Clare Ellis, in charge of post-excavation at the Edinburgh firm AOC Archaeology, said the pool was likely to have been a 'votive pool' - a phenomenon thought to be unparalleled at any other known stone or timber circle in Britain. No metalwork was found in the pool, but offerings of 'organic materials' such as sacrificial animals could have been made, from which no evidence has survived. Traces of wood in the pool may have belonged to a fence.

In and around the timber circle were six contemporary cyst burials. In one, a woman in her 20s or 30s was buried with a decorated food vessel. The decoration on the pot had been created by pressing a fingernail repeatedly into the wet clay.

Traces of much earlier monuments were also found underlying the circle. One end of an early Neolithic cursus - a ritual procession monument - was uncovered at the edge of the terrace, a place with a magnificent view across the Kilmartin Valley. The massive structure, some 45 metres wide, was defined not by banks and ditches but by hundreds of close-set oak posts. By the time the circle was built some 1,500 years later, these posts had no doubt disappeared; but the memory of the sacred importance of the site had probably survived. Also found were a number of late Mesolithic cooking pits containing charcoal dated to about 4,500 BC, perhaps marking the site of an overnight camp.

Surviving monuments in the Kilmartin Valley include a 'linear cemetery' of Bronze Age cairns, several standing stones, a stone circle and numerous elaborate rock art panels.
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Simon21 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:08 am

E.P. Grondine wrote:well, simon, I like to try to establish locations and chronology, and work from there.

I still think deconstructing Adomnan's Life of Columba into its sources is a good way of attacking his problem.
There is also a Prophatio Merlini which appears top be a"translation" of an Anglo-Saxon writing into Welsh to work through.
I treid to find Dark via google, but could not.


Saint's lives are almost, but not entirely worthless as historical documents. However Adomnan is one of the exceptions. When I was yuounger no one would credit the Lifeof St Germanus - but now it is believed that he did indeed come to Britain and brought an army with him.
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Tiompan » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:09 am

EP .Note the description of the timber circle in Kilmartin ,i.e. not a wood henge .
It has long been suggested that the timbers in timber circles may have had carved totems but there is no evidence for them at any site , so just conjecture .
There is a henge ,at Ballymeanoch , no associated stone or timber but it does have two cists .
Interesting and very popular area Kilmartin .
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Simon21 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:12 am

E.P. Grondine wrote:Archaeological research at a site in Galloway has suggested it may have been at the heart of a "lost kingdom" from the Dark Ages.

Ronan Toolis led the excavation works at Trusty's Hill Fort at Gatehouse of Fleet.

It unearthed evidence that it might have been the royal seat of the sixth century kingdom of Rheged.

Mr Toolis said it was "pre-eminent among the kingdoms of the north" at that time.

The location of Rheged had previously been thought by many historians to be in Cumbria.

However, Dr Christopher Bowles, co-director of the excavation work in Dumfries and Galloway, said that may not have been the case.
Archaeologists believe the royal seat of Rheged may have been in Galloway

"The new archaeological evidence from Trusty's Hill enhances our perception of power, politics, economy and culture at a time when the foundations for the kingdoms of Scotland, England, and Wales were being laid," he said.

"The 2012 excavations show that Trusty's Hill was likely the royal seat of Rheged, a kingdom that had Galloway as its heartland.

"This was a place of religious, cultural and political innovation whose contribution to culture in Scotland has perhaps not been given due recognition."

Dr Bowles said the influence of the kingdom had "rippled through the history and literature of Scotland and beyond".

Mr Toolis added that they had not been looking for Rheged when they started the excavations.
The excavation found evidence the area had been a royal stronghold

"What drew us to Trusty's Hill were Pictish symbols carved on to bedrock here, which are unique in this region and far to the south of where Pictish carvings are normally found," said Mr Toolis.

"The Galloway Picts Project was launched in 2012 to recover evidence for the archaeological context of these carvings.

"But far from validating the existence of Galloway Picts, the archaeological context revealed by our excavation instead indicates the carvings relate to a royal stronghold and place of inauguration for the local Britons of Galloway around AD 600.

"The new archaeological evidence suggests that Galloway may have been the heart of the lost Dark Age kingdom of Rheged,
a kingdom that was in the late sixth century pre-eminent amongst the kingdoms of the north."

The two men have produced a new book which details their findings.


Again further findings are awaited, Incidently the term "dark ages" is fading as a historical term, it has no clear date and is pejorative. The fact that this seems to be a royal site doesn't mean it was the centre of Rheged.
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby E.P. Grondine » Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:12 am

You still don't want to share the tourist dollars with Scotland, tiompan.
Nor admit that Native Americans built henges.
And by the way, the Kilmartin's henge's wood uprights were certainly not "Totem Poles".
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby E.P. Grondine » Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:22 am

simon wrote:Saint's lives are almost, but not entirely worthless as historical documents. However Adomnan is one of the exceptions. When I was younger no one would credit the Life of St Germanus - but now it is believed that he did indeed come to Britain and brought an army with him.


simon wrote:Again further findings are awaited, Incidently the term "dark ages" is fading as a historical term, it has no clear date and is pejorative. The fact that this seems to be a royal site doesn't mean it was the centre of Rheged.


Hi simon -
I owe the two of you some thanks for raising these matters.
II had forgotten all of this material after my stroke - the only thing that survived was what I was working on at the time (different part of brain),
words swam, and I could barely type with one finger.
But your exchange cause me to look back in my files.

IMO, the reason the Dark Ages are dark is due to the British Museum Library fir of 1721(?date).
That loss of records means that you have to work with what survived.
You work forward from known dates and backwards from known dates
Admonan's LIfe of Columba and that Prophatio Merlini are two works which have not been properly exploited yet in doing this, IMO.

Let me emphasize again to you that the destruction of Bazas is the most important datum in all of this.
For some reason, probably due to my work with impact events,
some people are of the opinion that I have no apparat for dealing with oral traditions or proto-historical writings.
But then they also lack any understanding of both discontinuity, and directed research.

I think Mike Baillie would like me to look through the Irish oral cycle materials,
but that is well beyond me now;
I am going to stick with the Native American materials, as those were what I was working on when my stroke hit.
Given that French E pottery distribution,
the destruction of Bazas will likely show up somewhere in the Irish materials as well,
providing yet another chronological lock.

Certainly it may be possible to recover writing on wood slats from the latrines at this ring fort.
I wonder if they did their GPR and resistivity surveys to locate them before they excavated?
Also, a simple metal detector survey is pretty much an essential first step before excavation, IMO.
When you have a fort site, this should show any military activity.
The old technique was to go to the center, hoping to find inscriptions;
there are new methods.

Right now I have several feet of other site reports to go through,
including about 5 inches that have a very high priority.

I hope the treasure trove found in the area will be displayed at the new local museum.
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Tiompan » Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:25 am

[
Show me what you describe as a prehistoric American henge , and if it fits the definition I'll agree, but bear in mind timber or stone components or putative alignments do not a henge make .

The timber circle at Kilmartin was not a henge , that was clarified earlier .
We couldn't possibly know whether the timber components of the circle had carvings of totems , or not , as the wood is long gone .
As mentioned earlier it is mere conjecture .
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby E.P. Grondine » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:11 am

tiompan, I've already given you multiple examples, which you appear to be unable or unwilling to perceive.
If you want to talk about circuli or circuluses, then use the correct term, and not "henge".
And the henge at Kilmartin is not a wood "circle" any more than its uprights were "totem poles".

Do you really want to continure to try to confuse people with your drivel about "aether"?
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Tiompan » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:28 am

You haven't given me multiple examples of henges .
You mention sites that you call henges based on your definition .
You never provide any detail from from any archaeological reports from these sites either .

Circuli and circuluses are not recognised monument types .
There are a huge number of prehistoric monument types that are circular or roughly circular none are referred to as a circulus .

When I use the term Henge it refers to the monument recognised by people who know about the subject the world over .
The only person that is confused and talking drivel is yourself .
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Simon21 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:51 pm

Conjecture plays an important role in archaeology, particularly where there is a lack of written evidence. Nobody interested in the subject would expect anything else. The whole context of Sutton hoo is conjecture - much of the purpose of Hadrian's Wall is conjecture.
I have not visited this site, and will not pretend to have done so but there is a henge in the area.
One should not get too heated about terms. I have seen the monuments of central America called pyramids and ziggurats, I have seen rare Koorie artifacts called "crown jewels", Moctezuma was not a european "emperor". Provided one has a brain it is not really a problem. In each case we may be sure such terms were not what the builders and owners would have used.
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Tiompan » Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:41 am

[
Nothing wrong with conjecture , who said there was ? In this case ,prehistoric totem poles , you can only shrug your shoulders and say maybe for either side of the argument .
"It has long been suggested that the timbers in timber circles may have had carved totems but there is no evidence for them at any site" .

We obviously can't know what terms were used by prehistoric peoples but there tends to be general agreement among people interested in the subject(s) today , in the use of a commonly accepted contemporary terminology .
If you get the terminology wrong it causes confusion . If you make up your own definitions it gets worse , having a private language, like ignoring evidence is fine for the individual , but not when others are involved .
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Simon21 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:28 am

Tiompan wrote:[
Nothing wrong with conjecture , who said there was ? In this case ,prehistoric totem poles , you can only shrug your shoulders and say maybe for either side of the argument .
"It has long been suggested that the timbers in timber circles may have had carved totems but there is no evidence for them at any site" .

We obviously can't know what terms were used by prehistoric peoples but there tends to be general agreement among people interested in the subject(s) today , in the use of a commonly accepted contemporary terminology .
If you get the terminology wrong it causes confusion . If you make up your own definitions it gets worse , having a private language, like ignoring evidence is fine for the individual , but not when others are involved .


It is not really a matter of agreement, it is a matter of communication. Scholars will often use a variety of terms to get a point across. The example of the LA "pyramids" has been used by very prominent scholars. It was a leading anthropoligist who used the term "crown jewels" to describe the Koori artifacts, he knew the actual terms since the people they were taken from were still vey much around. But he realised the actual terms (no doubt used in his papers) would make no sense to most people. He was not "wrong" to do so. In fact he was very effective and moves were made to see them returned.
Of course this can go too far, but given both sides know what is bveing talked about jumping up and down over a particualr word is largely pointless. Do we really disrupt a meeting, rend a book etc because Moctezuma is usually called "emperor" and not the "great speaker"?
Constantly, pedantically, arguing over definitions is like the proverbial angels on a pin head, it usually gets nowhere and does not advance the discussion one iota.
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Simon21 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:39 am

As regards totem poles, it is true until one is found we are never going to be able to say whether they were carved or not, or painted. I have to say I am not entirely clear what a "totem" pole is supposed to be, it seems to be a word whitey often uses when encountering the carved columns of non whites, like taboo.
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Re: Andrew Collins on Gobekli Tepe sister site

Postby Tiompan » Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:11 am

There was no discussion .
Years ago I politely pointed out the error of EP'S definition of henge .
He continued to use definitions that are obviously wrong became abusive and refused to accept the evidence highlighting the error .
I should have just left him to his error , foolishly I didn't . But he is wrong .
Some might argue for or against Jack Fuller's tomb being a pyramid .
Whatever it is , we know that it is not a Ziggerut .
Whilst the typology of henges is complicated we do know that EP's definitions are not that of henges .
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