Finkelstein and the use of Biblical Texts

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Re: Finkelstein and the use of Biblical Texts

Postby E.P. Grondine » Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:12 pm

Hi min -

This is how you do it. In the bulk of your talk you keep on talking about Goliath, whom David slew, as we have all been told from childhood:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAZPJRtdjmk#t=80

At the very end of your talk, you admit that the ground truth is that David did not conquer the Philistines.

Gosh, gee, min, do you think that David might have been a Philistine agent?

In any case, we have a script system in the immediate vicinity of Jerusalem in the 10th century BC.
And a technology for setting to papyrus any earlier records and oral traditions.

Perhaps the Philistines may have been the source for the Dorian Greek's and Phoenician's alphabets as well .

Now to check on the other alphabetic sripts in use shortly later in the Mediterranean...

Perhaps the Judahites got both their writing system and their water system technologies from the Philistines...
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Re: Finkelstein and the use of Biblical Texts

Postby E.P. Grondine » Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:18 pm

If that is not enough to make you gag, or laugh. Try this one:

Fairly scholorly, and scholarly fair:
http://www.inerrantword.com/180015375/b ... Scriptures

min, you do not have to worry about any threat to your opinion in this case, as here is the excavator of the Ai site:
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/20 ... Cares.aspx

Somebody also needs to tell these folks about "minoan" griffin iconography:
http://leeclarion.com/wordpress/wp-cont ... 15x387.jpg

Note how they proclaim this seal as being from the 1400's BC on the basis of precisely no evidence at all.

"Verily, Verily, Verily, Verily...
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Re: Finkelstein and the use of Biblical Texts

Postby Minimalist » Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:51 pm

Yes, and they may not be the same as yours, min.


That would be fine, E.P. Let's compare the evidence.


BTW, the bible is not 'evdence.' It is the 'claim" and the evidence does not support it.


Quoting large passages of this bullshit is not very impressive.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: Finkelstein and the use of Biblical Texts

Postby Minimalist » Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:52 pm

Perhaps the Philistines may have been the source for the Dorian Greek's and Phoenician's alphabets as well .



I suggest you read up on Amihai Mazar's work on the Philistines, E.P. You are sounding rather desperate.
Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed.

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Re: Finkelstein and the use of Biblical Texts

Postby E.P. Grondine » Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:26 pm

Not desperate at all, min.

As this shit stands in massive piles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShKCDOYgzwE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebla

it is really not my problem.

The contemporary texts I cited in my notes on the "Joshua" impact all depend on Egyptian chronology, which has been verified by 14C.
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Re: Finkelstein and the use of Biblical Texts

Postby E.P. Grondine » Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:33 pm

min, after the Holocaust you might have trouble with the ancient Israelites committing genocide.

I don't, and that is not because it was because they were carrying out "the will of God" as the Christian fundamentalists believe.

Let's compare the evidence.

My worknote from 2002. Note Well the contemporary documents and inscriptions:

The first written source for the event, the one with which Conference
participants are probably most familiar, is the biblical book of Joshua,
which admittedly was composed quite a while after the impact event itself.
To summarize once again the account in Joshua, the Israelites leave Egypt at
the time of the eruption of Thera in 1628 BC. They are repulsed at Rephidim,
return to the desert, eliminate the Kohath faction, and establish themselves
on the east bank of the Jordan in lands which were long before under Horim
(Hurrian) control. By the year count within Joshua, this brings us to around
1588 BC.

The Israelites begin to move across the Jordan, and after a particularly
savage attack on Ai, a "multi-national" force is assembled by the Hittites
to stop them. It is important to note that while some researchers point to
one particular tel as Ai, and to the lack of a destruction level there as
proof that the Joshua account is fictional, the identification of this
particular tel as Ai is not universally accepted, and there is another tel
nearby which remains uninvestigated and ignored.

Under the leadership of Joshua, the Israelites launch a night attack on the
Hittite "multi-national" force, and as the force regroups the impact event
occurs: "And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were
going down to Beth-horon, that the Lord cast down great stones from heaven
upon them unto Azekah, and they died. More died with hailstones than they
whom the children of Israel slew with the sword." The Israelites then went
on to slaughter and enslave a large region, dividing the land ca 1583 BC.

The second group of written sources for this impact event are the
comtemporary Hittite records of Hantilish's (Hantili's) defeat. To
summarize, Hantilish's predecessor Murshilish I (Musili I) is deafened by
the explosion of Thera as a child, and takes the throne in 1604 BC. (The
dating used here follows the Hittite scholar Michael Astour's sequence of
dates in "Hittite History and Absolute Chronology of the Bronze Age, page
2", but adjusted back by 64 years using the middle chronology Babylonian
astronomical cycle observation, which is commonly accepted by Hittite
scholars. The dates thus arrived at coincide very well with those
independently arrived at from the ice cores for the Thera explosion and
other the other texts.)

Murshilish I marches on Babylon in 1595 BC, but on his way home he is
attacked and defeated by the Hurrians. There is a treaty (KUB XXXVI 106 +
KBo IX 73)with "hapiru" ("raiders") which was concluded by either Murshilish
now, or by his successor Hantilish, some time after Hantilish's murder of
Murshilish in 1594 BC and his seizure of the throne.

It is important to note that exactly who the "hapiru" were remains another
issue very hotly contested today. The earlier use by cuneiform scribes of
"hapiru" to indicate a type of vassal seems to be entirely consistent with
the role of the ancient Israelites as vassals to the so-called "Hyksos", the
people who had earlier seized control of Egypt; and as will be seen shortly,
the Israelites are referred to as "hapiru" in other contemporaneous
documents.

Hantilish, after his murder of Murshilish I, also campaigns against the
Hurrians, but the Hurri defeat him and take his queen and heirs to Shugziya
and kill them. (Edict of Telepinush, 15-17) According to fragmentary record
KBo III 46, someone dies in Shugziya, after the death of 3 Hittite
commanders, and an unnamed Hittite king assembles 3000 "Hapiru" men and
garrisons them in a (name lost) city. (Astour, page 87)

Filling in the breaks in this series of extremely fragmentary
contemporaneous Hittite records, we also have a third document, a nearly
complete contemporaneous account of the events, the Akadian testament of
Idrimi Ilim Ilimma, King of Alalah. In Indrimi's version of events, a series
of disputes breaks out (which probably arose as a result the Hittite King
Murshilishi I's conquest of Aleppo in 1595 BCE), and he flees Aleppo to the
city of Emar, from which he is also forced to flee.

Idrimi finally find refuge for 7 years with the "hapiru" at Ammija in
Canaan, along with others from Aleppo, Muksis, Nihi and Amae. During these
7 years Idrimi and the "hapiru" are in conflict with Barrattarna, the King
of the Hurrians (biblical Horim).

After these 7 years, "Teshub" the sky god favors Idrimi because of his pious
worship. THIS IS A MENTION OF THE JOSHUA IMPACT EVENT IN A CONTEMPORARY
ACCOUNT. An approximate date for the impact event may be derived by moving
some 7+ years from 1595 BCE, the date of Murshilish I's
conquest of Aleppo, say sometime immediately after 1588 BCE.

Following the impact, Idrimi builds ships at the harbor of Nulla (with the
sabe(Erin mesh), also used to describe the "hapiru") and attacks and
conquers the cities of Alalah, Muksis, Amae, and Nihi. Now independent of
the "hapiru" and running his own kingdom, Idrimi betrays them and makes
peace with Barattarna, the King of the Hurrians.

Then, as Idrimi put it, the "kings to his right and left came against him".
Who exactly these kings were is not clear, but most likely they included
Hantilish, King of the Hittites, Hantilish's new "allies" the Israelites,
the "hapiru", as both were common enemies of the Hurrians, and Thutmose I of
Egypt, who was the enemy of the Hittites, Hurrians, and the
"hapiru", the Israelites. If this makes it any clearer, what we are dealing
with here is a 5 sided conflict which occured after the explosion of Thera
between the Hittites, Hurrians, Aleppans, Israelites, and Egyptians for
control of the northern Syrian ports and these ports' links to the Euphrates
River and thus to the valuable trade with the east.

Though under attack, Idrimi tells as that he defeated all his enemies and
left their bodies piled on the ground, as his father had done. Now secure
against attack, Idrimi goes on to attack the Hittite vassal cities of
Passahe, Damrut-re-i, Hulahhan, Zise, Ie, Uluzila, and Zarana, and he uses
the wealth of these cities to build his kingdom at Alalah.

(For a transcription, translation, and commentary on Idrimi's testament, see
Die Inschrift der Statue des Konigs Idirmi von Alalah, M. Dietrich and O.
Loretz, Ugarit Forschungen, Band 13, 1981, p 201-268.)

The destruction of the Minoan vassal forces under the Hittite King
Hantilish's command left their home lands defenceless, and easy prey for the
Myceneans. Thus Late Minoan IB comes to a rather decisive end, and this
leads to the creation of the forth group of written sources for the Joshua
Impact Event, the Ionian Greek "mythological" records. It appears that
Hantilish was known to the Achaean Mycenean Greeks as Tantalus, the god
(Theos) Hantilish, or T'e-Hantilish, the king of the coastal region of
Sipylus, which has been correctly identified as Hittite Zippasla. The rather
direct Mycenean sense of humor finds typical expression in its description
of Tantalus's fate. After Tantalus dies he is sent to hell, where though
surrounded by food and drink, he can not enjoy them, as he must hold up a
large stone with both hands, in order to keep it from falling on his head.
Thus we have another mention of the Joshua Impact Event.

The fifth group of documents are the later classical records which came from
the region of Sipylus and mentioned Hantilish's expedition. I saw second
hand notice of them in Peter James' book on Atlantis, "The Sunken Kingdom"
and corresponded with James, but still do not have direct citations from him
for this set of records, though I did recieve infromation from James that
Dr. Eva Danelius had conducted work at the area around Beth Horon to the
west of Jerusalem. Whether today's Beth Horon is the same as yesterday's
Beth Horon is another question entirely.

As for other archaeological records of the Joshua impact, there are
destruction levels at Jericho, Hormah, Gibeon, and Arad which have been
dated to 1550 BC, though I do not know if these dates are still valid. It
also appears that the Hittites were so weakened by the Joshua Impact Event
that they were unable to prevent the migration of the Gasgas (Kaskas) and
Achaeans, so in addition to every LM IB site, every archaeological site
concerning the movement of the Gasgas may be listed as well as support for
the Joshua Impact Event (tz'uk). As for our witness Idrimi Ilimi-Ilimma, the
University of Chicago's Oriental Institute has just re-started their
research into his homeland in Northern Syria, and those who are still
blessed may want to consider a tax-deductable donation to the Oriental
Institute's Amuq (Mukishe) Valley Survey project.

All of this brings us to Johansson's note on the Gebal Barkal monument in
Syria, an inscription whose contents I was earlier unaware of. While I don't
have a definitive copy of the Gebal Barkal inscription at hand (though
available either in Baltimore or Chicago, I don't feel like driving today),
one part of it is available via the internet:

"It was not known that you might learn/witness the miracle of [Amun-Re]
before the face of all the Two Lands (Egypt). [It was evening, when the
enemy troops came near]. [The guards] were about to come to meet in the
night to make the regular (change of) watch. THERE WERE TWO HOUR-WATCHERS;
THEN A STAR CAME FROM THE SOUTH OF THEM. THE LIKE HAD NEVER HAPPENED. IT
BEAMED TOWARDS THEM FROM ITS POSITION. NOT ONE REMAINED STANDING THERE"
(Younger, 217).

When dealing with this particular text it is important to keep in mind that
the restorations of it set out in brackets need to be handled with extreme
caution, if not re-done entirely, particularly the statements about "[enemy
troops coming near]". Astour places the invasion of Thutmose I against the
Hurrians, (who the Egyptians conveniently refer to as the people of
Mitani-Naharina, as if things weren't already confusing enough), as occuring
at the same time as Hantilish's reign as King of the Hittites. Astour's
chronology for the Egyption kings of this period yields Thutmose I from
1589-1576 BCE, Thutmose II from 1576-1568 BCE, Hateshput 1567-1546 BCE, and
Thutmose III 1568 (co-reign)- 1514 BCE, when adjusted by 64 years to the
Middle Chronology. Reignal year three for Thutmose I thus becomes 1586 BCE.

Thutmose I attacked Za'una and Niya, cities which had been taken by Idrimi,
and this most likely is one of the attacks Idrimi referred to in his
testament. Thus what appears to have happened is that Thutmose I saw the
impact, heard of the Hittite defeat, and realized it would be a good time to
re-assert Egyptian control of the North Syrian coastal ports.

For another separate and distinct biblical account of the "hapiru"
(Israelite)/Aleppan alliance, see Judges Chapters 1-3, wherin as an attempt
at reconciling the two different text sets the scribe gave Joshua the
impossible lifespan of some 110 years. More to the point is that immediately
after Joshua's conquests in Judges Chapter 2, the Israelites are visited
with destruction due to their alliance with the followers of Astarte and
Ba'al, the patron's of Alala. In other words Thutmose I invades, and some
40 years later, the Children of Ammon, in other words the Children of Amon
Ra, the Egyptians, attack Israel again under while under the rule of
Thutmose III (Judges 3:11-13).

In conclusion, we now have some six sets of documents referring to events at
the time of the Joshua Impact Event. If the Gebal Barbuk Inscription holds
up under scrutiny, it will be the seventh document and the second
contemporaneous account of the Joshus Impact Event which we will have. If
might be useful if Sorrenson could e-mail the Conference the full text of
the inscription and if it was posted to the Conference archives.
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Re: Finkelstein and the use of Biblical Texts

Postby E.P. Grondine » Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:03 pm

Well, it appears that Eva Danelius was/is a confused Velikovsky follower.

In any case, Velikovsky's chronology, like the rest of his work, was crap,
That leaves recovering this impact open for me.

http://www.specialtyinterests.net/map_beth_horon.html

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/artic ... beth-horon

"Name of two villages at the western end of the Ephraimitc mountains, called respectively "upper Beth-horon" (Josh. xvi. 5) and "nether Beth-horon" (Josh. xvi. 3, xviii. 13; I Kings ix. 17). They are nowadays spoken of as the two villages "Bet 'ûr et-Taḥta" (the lower) and "Bet 'ûr el-Foḳa" (the upper). They were situated on an old road leading from Gibeon to the plain on the coast; this is mentioned in the Old Testament as a difficult and steep road between the villages of Beth-horon (Josh. x. 10; ἡ ἀνάβασις Βαιθωρών, I. Macc. iii 16), or Morad Beth-horon (Josh. x. 11; έν τῆ καταβασει BαιΘωρών. I. Macc. iii. 24).

"IN ANCIENT TIMES THE ROAD WAS THE PRINCIPLE HIGHWAY BETWEEN THE MOUNTAINS AND THE PLAIN.

"Here the Canaanites fled from Joshua (Josh. x. 10 et seq.); and by this road the Egyptian king Shishak probably invaded the country, since Beth-horon is mentioned in the inscription relating his victory (W. Max Müller, "Asien und Europa," p. 166).

"It was for strategic reasons that Solomon fortified the lower Beth-horon.

"In Grecian times the Syrian general Seron attempted to force an entrance by Beth-horon into the country, but was repulsed by Judas Maccabeus (I Macc. iii. 13 et seq.). Nicanor afterward met with the same fate (I Macc. vii. 39 et seq.). When Bacchides became master of the Jewish country he strongly fortified this important point.

"It is again mentioned when the Romans under Cassius sustained heavy losses there (Josephus, "B. J." ii. 19, § 8). It may also be gathered from the Old Testament that these two villages were built by the daughter of Ephraim (I Chron. vii. 24), and that Sanballat, the adversary of Nehemiah, came from there (Neh. ii. 10, 19; xiii. 28). For the form "Horônî" compare 'Ωρωνíν; i.e., "Horonaim" in Septuagint of Josh. ix. 10 and 11; Sam. xiii. 24. Several of the Talmudic scholars came from Beth-horon (Neubauer, "G. T." p. 154)."

If T'e Hantilish and his appenage forces were delivered to the coast by "minoans", then this may well have been their line of march in-land.
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Re: Finkelstein and the use of Biblical Texts

Postby E.P. Grondine » Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:16 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aijalon

http://www.kkl.org.il/eng/tourism-and-r ... -park.aspx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_Park

The park is located on the lands of three Palestinian West Bank villages,[5] partly on land that Israel claims to have annexed.[6][disputed – discuss]
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Re: Finkelstein and the use of Biblical Texts

Postby E.P. Grondine » Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:45 pm

The "newly" found Egyptian inscription:

http://members.bib-arch.org/publication ... ticleID=11
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Re: Finkelstein and the use of Biblical Texts

Postby E.P. Grondine » Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:15 pm

oh joy, right outside Ramallah:

http://www.drybohnz.com/archaeopages/Ar ... age014.gif

and just to the west of Jerusalem.

So the search for impactites (and 16 century BCE battle goodies! easily found with a metal detector,
but you have to watch out for more current munitions)
would be between there and Beth Horon -

All in all - I'd rather study anchorages and deforestation on Crete:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86taZjxgO64
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