Bilzingsleben

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Bilzingsleben

Postby uniface » Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:24 pm

Neat HE stuff -- just ran into it, surfing around. Pretty interesting, IMO.

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~feliks/p ... ingsleben/
uniface
 

Re: Bilzingsleben

Postby Tiompan » Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:08 am

Uni I commented on this a while ago can't find the page so but here's the comment fwiw.

I have ignored the actual measurements (which may prove problematic i.e. at what point do you measure an angle or distance when the line is not straight and the surface uneven etc, but see below ) and concentrated on interpretation and specific comments .The central problem is Phi , btw (did Plato really use the phrase “Key to the physics of the universe “ in the Timaeus as suggested ?).e don't her too much about it until the 16th C when it becomes “Golden” or “Divine “ then again much later in the occult revival .The oft quoted art and architectural stuff when checked is inaccurate , “even the famed Parthenon, often used as an example of the golden rectangle, does not present the same accuracies as nearly all of the Acheulian evidence presented in this paper.” hardly surprising considering it never used the ratio in the first place .

It does have mathematical properties but it's use has been greatly overstated with the 20 th C probably seeing the greatest use mainly due to the occult revival at the turn of the century .The credit card is a recent one , the specified shape is 85.60 × 53.98mm =1.5857.
The text suggests phi was important because it is embodied in the human brain and body ratios When it comes to organs and body parts most adults realise that not all wo(men) are equal in size , shape and most importantly ratios .
“Phi is the overall structure of the brain ...also the location of the cerebellum within the brain...being tucked away at the core of the brain's phi spiral ,brings to mind the pattern of the nautilus shell .” Apart from the problems noted above this introduces another problem ,phi is often associated with the Fibonacci sequence , it is but so are many other quadratic recursive equations .It's yet another example of finding phi when it's often not there .The closest spiral to the nautilus shell is square root of 2 to 1 .The Fibonacci quarterly is a scholarly journal where any mention of phi in relation to the sequence is dismissive with the odd paper solely on that theme .
There are musical analogies suggesting that “western trained ears are scarcely able to grasp it (the quarter tone ) .Certainly in conventional western notation quarter tones are “rounded off” but there have been ways of notating them for nearly a century but more importantly listeners obviously hear them ,most instrumentalists with the exception of the vat majority of keyboard players frequently pitch at non notated values and are enjoyed for it (when it is not actually out of tune ) any blues guitarist playing in a pub or the singer /sax player in the same band will frequently pitch the quarter tone between the major and minor third of the tonal centre and a lot more besides .The use of “auto tune “ my have put paid to such practices and consequently punters find it bland .One musical aspect of phi we can be sure of is how it relates to pitch ,the result an interval nearly midway between a minor and major sixth ,i.e. C- a slightly sharp A flat , inauspicious and never mentioned in the literature afaik . Bach fugues and their various counterpoint techniques also get mentioned in relation to the markings ,if someone mentioned a bright student at the RCM in the same breath as J.S.Bach you would smile at their optimism/cheek . The Bilzingsleben artefacts give us a great insight but they are possibly (likely in my view ) only one of thousands that are lost forever or yet to be discovered ,if they do show a preference for a particular ratio as many Acheulian bi faces do it is more than likely a matter of Lower paleolithic aesthetics or possibly something more utilitarian .Derek Hodgson ,one of the editors of the BAR report the paper was taken from suggests that symmetry of Acheulian bi faces is due to an aesthetic bias (the length to width ratio being close to phi ) this is not the only explanation but is reasonable and possible and one I have some sympathy for .Measure is an important component of any archaeo study but when introduced into aesthetics it is merely reductionist .It is instructive to know the form and techniques used as ground for an artistic work whether sonata form ,12 bar blues or cubism ,if it communicates it is much more than that .The beauty of Acheulian hand axes transcends time and ratios .

In a previous post I mentioned ignoring the actual measurements in the “Phi in the Acheulain “(Pita ) as the concept itself was sufficiently contentious .However one example was checked .With only limited drawings of the artefacts available i.e Maria & Maria (1988), Bedarnik (1997) , Steguweit (1999) and a jpeg on Wiki from Jose Manuel Benito it's best to rely on actual pics of the artefact as there are some discrepancies in the drawings mainly relating one of the lines (at the extreme left or right of the largest grouping depending on which way up the artefact is viewed .) being usually shown at a more oblique angle than is evident in the pic. We have to rely on measurements quoted from Maria & Maria . For artefact 2 from Bilzingsleben this is quoted as being 285 mm x 36 mm (p17 pita) . P 12 of “Musings on the Paleolithic fan motif “ gives measurements for the spacings between the engraved lines as being 60-20-40-40-60 mm ,the latter spacing is excluded from the resulting calculations despite the fact that ,(if the measurements are correct ) it has an self similar relationship with the other spacings but it would spoil the fan motif .( This similarity can also be found on the artefact from Oldisleben , possibly coincidental but nevertheless a clearer example of a possible 1:1 ratio than which is surely more likely than phi ) .The spacings do not have any phi relationship but when four diagonals are added to the lines , three “golden rectangles “ are said to be produced . We know the ratios of these rectangles from previous info i.e. 60:36 which equals 1.66666 and is not a golden triangle ,interestingly it is related to the fibonacci sequence being the same as the ratio 5:3 but it's not the “divine proportion “ So ultimately one line gets left out and four added to produce three non golden rectangles .

George
Last edited by Tiompan on Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bilzingsleben

Postby uniface » Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:44 am

That post is worth the price of admission in itself ! VERY interesting and valuable information.

Thank you for taking the time to post it !
uniface
 

Re: Bilzingsleben

Postby uniface » Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:35 am

This is off-topic, but since we're not doing too much with this here anyhow,

Certainly in conventional western notation quarter tones are “rounded off” but there have been ways of notating them for nearly a century


Actually, far longer.

Wiki wrote:Guillaume Costeley's "Chromatic Chanson", "Seigneur Dieu ta pitié" of 1558 used 1/3 comma meantone and explored the full compass of 19 pitches in the octave. (Lindley 2001a).

The Italian Renaissance composer and theorist Nicola Vicentino (1511–1576) worked with microtonal intervals building a keyboard with 36 keys to the octave, known as the archicembalo. Theoretically an interpretation of ancient Greek tetrachordal theory, in effect Vincento presented a circulating system of quarter-comma meantone, maintaining major thirds tuned in Just intonation in all keys (Barbour 1951, 117–18).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microtonal_music

but more importantly listeners obviously hear them, most instrumentalists with the exception of the vast majority of keyboard players frequently pitch at non-notated values and are enjoyed for it


Of course. Every interval in a tempered scale divided into exactly 12 equal steps (as in a piano) is out of tune. Violinists are not limited by this and can play "in tune," even with a piano. The listener's ear hears them as "right." The problem with this is that there are various ideas as to what tweaks of the tempered scale are the "correct" ones -- I can remember some big arguments in rehearsals over exactly this.
uniface
 

Re: Bilzingsleben

Postby Tiompan » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:26 am

Musicians have been using microtones for ever ,but I was referring to notation of quarter tones .

I don't think there is a right or wrong , it is a matter taste and the listener decides which they prefer .Exactly the same applies to pushing and or holding back the written or expected rhythm ,which can provide greater interest and enjoyment for some listeners whilst it might make others may feel uncomfortable .If you actually change the pitch by a semi tone or rhythm by say a demi semi quaver , then arguably you are wrong ,unless of course it works .
George
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Re: Bilzingsleben

Postby uniface » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:20 am

One of Bronstein's Paradoxes :

Raphael Bronstein wrote:You can use the violin to play the music,
or you can use the music to play the violin.


What you hear today is almost exclusively the latter -- so much so that it passes for it.

IMO, it's worth going well out of your way to get the 1928/9 (?) recording of the Schubert Trio in B-flat (Op. 99) by the Cassals/Cordot/Thibout Trio. It's an object lesson in how important playing in time is when you're playing Music. (= +/- 2%). :D

PS : One man's "quarter tones" can be identical in pitch to someone else's slight tweaks if he's using a different set of scale intervals. Can't tell the players without a scorecard ! :lol:
uniface
 

Re: Bilzingsleben

Postby Tiompan » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:30 am

it's here .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FzGpy3F9Cg

playing out of time is almost unforgiveable , playing with and within the time at the right time , particularly collectively , sometimes makes a performance .
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Re: Bilzingsleben

Postby uniface » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:06 am

De gustibus non disputandem :D
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Re: Bilzingsleben

Postby uniface » Fri Jun 27, 2014 8:21 am

IMO, it's worth going well out of your way to get the 1928/9 (?) recording of the Schubert Trio in B-flat (Op. 99) by the Cassals/Cordot/Thibout Trio. It's an object lesson in how important playing in time is when you're playing Music. (= +/- 2%). :D


tiompan wrote:playing out of time is almost unforgiveable , playing with and within the time at the right time , particularly collectively , sometimes makes a performance .


A little food for thought :

Keith Hill and Marianne Ploger wrote:Synaesthesia means multiple simultaneous perceptions. The brain is designed for perceiving multiple sensations at the same moment. With the senses of sight, smell, and taste, we expect our sensory experiences to be loaded with multiple simultaneous stimulations. Even a simple pie is a combination of different flavors from fruit, flour, sugar, salt, spices, eggs, butter, and the effects of cooking. The culinary art lives because people adore eating food that is highly dimensional in flavors. Each dish mingles salty, sour, sweet, bitter, and savory (meaty) in various proportions. We supposedly taste the different flavors on various parts of the tongue. This creates the effect of synaesthesia. The senses of sight and smell function similarly. A large measure of the joy of viewing Monet's paintings is to see all the colors of the palette on every square centimeter of surface on his best paintings. The sense of hearing likewise needs that same level of stimulation. Yet classical music is performed today in a manner designed to eliminate synaesthesia altogether. This is due to a basic ignorance among musicians about how the ear/brain makes sense of heard experiences.

Although the many different frequencies and timbres are detected differently by the ears, we 'hear' or perceive musical and other regular simultaneous sounds as composites as opposed to distinct and discreet frequencies and timbres. When music is performed in a way designed to have sounds such as chords heard as composites, the normal human ear hears only one sound. If the composer has written a four note chord, and all the notes are played simultaneously, the normal listener will hear not four notes but one sound only; a rich sound, but nonetheless only one sound. If the performer endeavors to perform each note in the chord so that the notes don't sound absolutely together or simultaneously, the normal listener will easily hear all four notes and the chord simultaneously. That creates an experience for the normal listener of hearing a total of five sounds altogether.

The synaesthesis technique requires heard musical information to be slightly desynchronized; just enough for the mind of the listener to perceive all the timbres, all the pitches, all the melodies, all the rhythms, all the details, all the harmonies so that they all emerge into the consciousness.

In 1768, Jacob Adlung in his Musica Mechanica Organoedi, vol. 2 chapter 22 paragraph 522, says of playing the harpsichord, "One must endeavor to use more arpeggios and such, rather than striking the keys together or playing too slowly since the strings cease vibrating right away." Mozart and Chopin also insisted that the hands are never played together.

The result of having the notes in music be "misaligned in time" is that they are desynchronous. Desynchronicity, when other than an end in itself, produces a kind of independence of voices. When voices sound truly independent, the brain is able to perceive each individual voice more easily. When we perceive two or more voices or lines as distinct yet simultaneous expressions the effect in us is called synaesthesis. It's an amazing paradox that when the motion of the voices is truly independent, the surface appears exceedingly complex but, in fact, the music is simpler for the average listener to behold and easily follow. Indeed, the listener feels deprived when the feeling of independence of voices is missing. The synaesthesis technique depends on the ability of the performer to hear, follow, and create multiple voices in the music; voices that are clearly independent of the others yet always manage to agree.

When the lines are played as one usually hears them played today, that is, always together or simultaneous, even a trained musician has trouble to tell the voices apart. This is because the brain reads the interval played in this manner as being a composite or parts of the lowest heard note. Once so recognized, the brain little needs to pay attention to what is happening except in the lowest or the highest voice. Indeed, very few musicians today have the ability to expressively sing and maintain two voices at the same time...this inability results from a "keypunching" attitude in performing, ironically, an attitude that has now even infected singers. Only by consciously creating distinctions between lines and singing each and every voice in the music can the performer make clear to the listener what is happening in any music which has more than one line. Differences in timbre and volume help to create more distinction but these devices never are as consistently successful at creating clear distinctions between the different lines in music as when the synaesthesis technique is used even to only a very slight degree.

Furthermore, Giovanni Tosi, in his treatise on singing titled, The Art of the Florid Song, published in 1736, uses the term vacillare to describe the effect of vacillating in the melody from being before the bass to lagging behind the bass. He states that "the singer should endeavor to sing before the beat or after the beat and never with it." Astonishing!!!!! Today, almost no classically trained singers do this because they are usually mercilessly censured for doing so. Bel Canto means beautiful singing, not beautiful tone. Tosi says of this effect that it "is one of the most beautiful effects in music." The vacillations he describes give the synaesthesis technique a feeling of flow and freedom...a most beautiful effect indeed.

It is interesting to realize that Bach, in manuscripts of his keyboard pieces, uses vacillare just as Tosi recommends. When you listen to the next YouTube post below you will note by a careful inspection of his manuscript as it scrolls by how it reveals that the vertical alignment of the notes of the right hand either precede or follow the notes of the left hand. About 60% of time the right hand notes precede the left hand notes and about 40% follow the left hand. To suggest that Bach was doing this either unintentionally or that he had problems with vertical alignment is preposterous because Bach was probably the most intentional of all composers especially when it involved music and he had no problems aligning notes in orchestral scores.

Forqueray gives instructions in his published arrangement for harpsichord of his father's Pieces for Viola da Gamba that the player play the music exactly as it appears on the printed page. The pieces that follow show the right and left hand notes being vertically non-aligned even to the extent that some whole notes in the left hand appear in the middle of the measure!!

And Giulio Caccini, in his Nuove musiche e nuove maniera di scriverle ("The New Music and the New Manner in Which it is Written," Florence, 1614), suggests something very similar to vacillare when he writes: "Sprezzatura is that elegance given to a melody by several technically-incorrect eights or sixteenths on different tones, technically-incorrect with respect to their timing, thus freeing the melody from a certain narrow limitation and dryness and making it pleasant, free, and airy, just as in common speech, where eloquence and invention make affable and sweet the matters being expounded upon."

Does all this mean that using a synasthesia technique in the form of vacillare is easy? Certainly not. It must be practiced to become proficient at it. Even harder is to develop the ability to think and imagine all the voices one is playing, be they 2 or 5 at once, so that each voice is sung both extremely expressively and independently of the other voices. But it can be done. We have coached an organ student who was unable to play all voices of a 4 part Chorale Prelude from Bach's Orgelbüchlein and within 20 minutes he was singing and playing all four voices independently and expressively throughout the entire piece. So we know that it is possible for all musicians to learn to do this. Furthermore, Bach's music cannot be heard as it was intended to be heard unless one masters this technique.

Listen to the following musical example of a Bach three part Invention and hear how each voice is being sung expressively and independently creating the effects of Synaesthesis and Vacillare.


http://youtu.be/xdA7glH_wiQ

http://www.musicalratio.com/aboutthecraft.html
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