Luwian notes

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Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:14 pm

Possibly the easiest way to sort this out would be to find The House of Life in Egypt
and then just read the Egyptian hieroglyphic accounts:

"Hieroglyphic columns in Egypt tell of the Trojan War

In his eleventh speech, Dio provided a detailed description of the events leading up to the Trojan War, which in some respects differs from the popular version. The way he derived the story is noteworthy, too:

I, therefore, shall give the account as I learned it from a certain very aged priest in Onuphis, who often made merry over the Greeks as a people, claiming that they really knew nothing about most things … My informant told me that all the history of earlier times was recorded in Egypt, in part in the temples, in part upon certain columns … He added that these stories about Troy were included in their more recent records.

Dio Chrysostom, 11.37–38 (Cohoon)

Onuphis is situated in the Nile Delta in the immediate vicinity of Saïs; that is exactly where Solon, six centuries before Dio, first learned from a wise temple priest about hieroglyphic columns describing a glorious victory of his Greek ancestors over a power in the distant past (Plato, Timaeus 21e–22b)."
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:24 am ... s_2008.pdf

page 95 et seq.

Perhaps Luwian "Ku-run-ta" is related to L.B. "ko-re-te", but in this case the "God" is a human ruler.
in other words Ku-run-ta ="Prince".
compare "Hantalishi" becoming Te (God) Hantalishi= Tantalus.

Or perhaps Ku-run-ta is related to Karyanda, a city just south of Miletus:


source of the word Carian?

The Achaeans were the a2-a-ja of the Knossos L.B. archive.
The question is whether the Achaeans were first brought in as mercenaries by the Hittite King,
or by the coastal peoples.

A few random thoughts -
I agree entirely with Brown on the phonetic loading of the Linear A signs,
and that the L.A. signs could be "easily" read by speakers of languages in the Lycian family.
The L.A. syllabary is derivative of what used to be called "Hittite" hieroglyphs.
it is time for them to be called Lycian Hieroglyphs.

As for the language family relationship,
based on the mt DNA evidence the speakers of languages of this family
extended to Ireland and Scotland,
and it is best analyzed within itself, by comparison with other members of the family,
and not as an Indo-European variant.

No one, and I mean no one (to my knowledge), is tracing out the trade in opium.
Given opium's medical uses, it must have been a very important trade item,
and the maritime peoples would have been deeply involved in this trade.

Where was that opium produced?
Did it pass through the eastern Black Sea?
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby kbs2244 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:46 pm

A brief history of opium
It did not take long for the Egyptians to start growing their own. ... story.html
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:11 am

Thanks, kb -

c.1100 B.C.
On the island of Cyprus, the "Peoples of the Sea" craft surgical-quality culling knives to harvest opium, which they would cultivate, trade and smoke before the fall of Troy.

1100 BCE appears to be after the fall of Troy.
Perhaps opium growing was transferred to Cyprus because it was no longer available through the older sources through Troy.

There are also depictions of opium poppies in "Minoan" priestesses' head dresses:


note the other items shown in their head-dresses.



datura was used as a remedy for snake bites



I really like this signet ring.

Note the Moon and Sun at top of it, and compare with this navigational device:

my guess is that it simply gives directions, based on the sun, moon, and time of year.
I'll ask Fletcher to work through it.
[side note- The eruption of Thera appears to have set back European civilization by about 3,000 years]

The psychoactive factors shown on this ring from right to left:
wine, opium, saffron, mushrooms, and some kind of datura.
Your own perceptions of this ring may vary from mine.

Then of course there was Homer's honeyed wine:

Visit the remote mountainside towns in Turkey’s Black Sea region during springtime and you may witness beekeepers hauling their hives upslope, until they reach vast fields of cream and magenta rhododendron flowers. Here, they unleash their bees, which pollinate the blossoms and make a kind of honey from them so potent, it’s been used as a weapon of war.

The dark, reddish, “mad honey,” known as deli bal in Turkey, contains an ingredient from rhododendron nectar called grayanotoxin — a natural neurotoxin that, even in small quantities, brings on light-headedness and sometimes, hallucinations. In the 1700s, the Black Sea region traded this potent produce with Europe, where the honey was infused with drinks to give boozers a greater high than alcohol could deliver.

Although the product makes up only a tiny percentage of the Black Sea’s honey production, it’s long held a strong Turkish following. “People believe that this honey is a kind of medicine,” Turedi says. “They use it to treat hypertension, diabetes mellitus and some different stomach diseases. And also, some people use deli bal to improve their sexual performance.

When over-imbibed, however, the honey can cause low blood pressure and irregularities in the heartbeat that bring on nausea, numbness, blurred vision, fainting, potent hallucinations, seizures, and even death, in rare cases. Nowadays, cases of mad honey poisoning crop up every few years—oftentimes in travelers who have visited Turkey.

From Thebes:

Remember that we're dealing here with matrilineal peoples,
where kingship passed through the female side.
These ladies were not mere "priestesses".
nor were they "Goddesses".

Remember also that no "Minoan" container ever showed up empty anywhere else.

Juglets From Cyprus found in Egypt 18th dynasty
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:12 am


Note the sun emblems on some of the ships.
If Marinatos identification of the town on the right as Thera [Calliste] is correct, and it most likely is,
then the town on the right is most likely Troy, Wilusa, Ilios, Helios.
Troy had a harbor on the Aegean coast, along with a system of canals to avoid the Hellespont.


Now should the government of Turkey go through Schleiman's spoil heaps,
to recover architectural stones and other items,
or try to locate this site?
Turkey, like Greece, Italy, and Mexico has an abundance of archaeological remains.
Now you have real issues for cultural resource management, including tourism and economic effects.

Note the form of the helmet:
and the helmets and shields shown here:
Image ... co-puzzles

from Tiryns, wih a different shield style:


from Mycenae:

a different shield [or a figure 8 shield turned sideways?] and helmet style from Pylos:
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:18 pm

a river with a griffin:

a priestess with griffin and monkey [from Egyptian trade]:

From the Throne room at Knossos:

note spiral on shoulder

From Pylos Tholos IV:


Are those shields shown in its base?


Griffin with a different attendant, one dressed like this:
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby kbs2244 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:53 pm

A long time, long distance and well traded product.
It doesn't appear to be a subject of a "war" either.
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:16 am

kbs2244 wrote:A long time, long distance and well traded product.
It doesn't appear to be a subject of a "war" either.

Hi kb -
It appears that anything of value will be fought for.
Take a look at the wars for Alasiya (Cyprus).
If an eastern Black Sea source was cut off,
and opium production shifted to Cyprus, then...
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby Tiompan » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:59 am

Sightings of "Snake Goddesses " brings to mind "You were born with a snake in both your fists " and the highly recommended "Mysteries of the Snake Goddess " by Kenneth Lapatin .
Usually anything with mystery , enigma , secret in the title indicates something worthy of a few laughs but the sub title "Art , Desire and the Forging of History " gives a clue to what it is really about .
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Tiompan wrote:Sightings of "Snake Goddesses " brings to mind "You were born with a snake in both your fists " and the highly recommended "Mysteries of the Snake Goddess " by Kenneth Lapatin .
Usually anything with mystery , enigma , secret in the title indicates something worthy of a few laughs but the sub title "Art , Desire and the Forging of History " gives a clue to what it is really about .

Hi tiompan -
That video really helped the song - nice to see Dylan on VEVO, where at least he gets paid a little bit. I really enjoyed it.
I'm pretty sure that whatever Lapatin wrote, it is now being used by some confused women to present themselves as spiritual guides for cash.
If I can ever figure out "Minoan" religion was, it is highly unlikely that I will adopt it.
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:12 pm

I am going to explore the hypothesis that Ku-run-ta is related to Karyanda, a city just south of Miletus:


and that it was the source of the ethnonym Carian.

From Wikipedia, so of course it has to be reliable:

"Caria (/ˈkɛəriə/; from Greek: Καρία, Karia, Turkish: Karya) was a region of western Anatolia extending along the coast from mid-Ionia (Mycale) south to Lycia and east to Phrygia.[1] The Ionian and Dorian Greeks colonized the west of it and joined the Carian population in forming Greek-dominated states there. The inhabitants of Caria, known as Carians, had arrived there before the Ionian and Dorian Greeks.

They were described by Herodotos as being of Minoan Greek descent,[2] while the Carians themselves maintained that they were Anatolian mainlanders intensely engaged in seafaring and were akin to the Mysians and the Lydians.[2] The Carians did speak an Anatolian language, known as Carian, which does not necessarily reflect their geographic origin, as Anatolian once may have been widespread.[citation needed] Also closely associated with the Carians were the Leleges, which could be an earlier name for Carians or for a people who had preceded them in the region and continued to exist as part of their society in a reputedly second-class status.[citation needed]

Homer's Iliad records that at the time of the Trojan War, the city of Miletus belonged to the Carians, and was allied to the Trojan cause

Herodotus, the famous historian was born in Halicarnassus during the 5th century BC.

According to Herodotos, the legendary King Kar, son of Zeus and Creta, founded Caria and named it after him,
and his brothers Lydos and Mysos founded Lydia and Mysia, respectively.

"Caria and the Carians are mentioned for the first time in the cuneiform texts of the Old Assyrian and Hittite Empires, i.e., between c.1800 and c.1200.
The country was called Karkissa. [perhaps confused readings of Carcamesh].
The people are absent from the Egyptian texts of this age. [And that is not likely either.]

An "incomprehensible" Carian inscription:


After a gap of some four centuries in which they are mentioned only once, the first to mention the Carians was the Greek poet Homer. In the Catalogue of Ships, he tells that they lived in Miletus, on the Mycale peninsula, and along the river Meander. According to Homer, they had sided with the Trojans in the Trojan War[Homer, Iliad 2.867ff.]

elsewhere under Carians:

It is not clear when the Carians enter into history. The definition is dependent on corresponding Caria and the Carians to the "Karkiya" or "Karkisa" mentioned in the Hittite records.
Bronze Age Karkisa are first mentioned as having aided the Assuwa League against the Hittite King Tudhaliya I.
Later in 1323 BC, King Arnuwandas II was able to write to Karkiya for them to provide asylum for the deposed Manapa-Tarhunta of "the land of the Seha River", one of the principalities within the Luwian Arzawa complex in western Anatolia.
This they did, allowing Manapa-Tarhunta to take back his kingdom.
In 1274 BC, Karkisa are also mentioned among those who fought on the Hittite Empire side against the Egyptians in the Battle of Kadesh. Taken as a whole, Hittite records seem to point at a Luwian ancestry for the Carians and, as such, they would have lost their literacy through the Dark Age of Anatolia.

The relationship between the Bronze Age "Karkiya" or "Karkisa" and the Iron Age Caria and the Carians is complicated, despite having western Anatolia as common ground, by the uncertainties regarding the exact location of the former on the map within Hittite geography.[2] Yet, the supposition is suitable from a linguistic point-of-view given that the Phoenicians were calling them "KRK" in their abjad script and they were referred to as "krka" in Old Persian.

The Carians next appear in records of the early centuries of the first millennium BC;
Homer's writing about the golden armour or ornaments of the Carian captain Nastes, the brother of Amphimachus and son of Nomion,[3]
reflects the reputation of Carian wealth that may have preceded the Greek Dark Ages and thus recalled in oral tradition.

[and just for min]
In some translations of Biblical texts, the Carians are mentioned in 2 Kings 11:4, 11:19 (/kɑˈɽi/; כָּרִי, in Hebrew literally "like fat sheep/goat", contextually "noble" or "honored") and perhaps alluded to in 2 Samuel 8:18, 15:18, and 20:23 (/kɽɛˈti/; כְּרֵתִי, probably unrelated due to the "t", may be Cretans).

They are also named as mercenaries in inscriptions found in ancient Egypt and Nubia, dated to the reigns of Psammetichus I and II.
They are sometimes referred to as the "Cari" or "Khari".
Carian remnants have been found in the ancient city of Persepolis or modern Takht-e-Jamshid in Iran.

The Greek historian Herodotus recorded that Carians themselves believed to be aborigines of Caria but they were also, by general consensus of ancient sources, a maritime people before being gradually pushed inland.[4]


Plutarch mentions the Carians as being referred to as "cocks" by the Persians on account of their wearing crests on their helmets;
the epithet was expressed in the form of a Persian privilege when a Carian soldier responsible for killing Cyrus the Younger was rewarded by Artaxerxes II (r. 405/404–359/358 BC) with the honor of leading the Persian army with a golden cock on the point of his spear.[5]

According to Thucydides, it was largely the Carians who settled the Cyclades prior to the Minoans.
The Middle Bronze Age (MMI–MMII) expansion of the Minoans into this region seems to have come at their expense.
Intending to secure revenue in the Cyclades,
Minos of Knossos established a navy with which he established his first colonies by taking control of the Hellenic sea and ruling over the Cyclades islands.
In doing so, Minos expelled the Carians, many of which had turned to piracy as a way of life.

During the Athenian purification of Delos, all graves were exhumed and it was found that more than half were Carians
(identified by style of arms and the method of interment).[6]

According to Strabo, Carians, of all the "barbarians", had a particular tendency to intermingle with the Greeks,

This was particularly the case with the Carians, for, although the other peoples were not yet having very much intercourse with the Greeks nor even trying to live in Hellenic fashion or to learn our language ... yet the Carians roamed throughout the whole of Greece serving on expeditions for pay. ... and when they were driven thence [from the islands] into Asia, even here they were unable to live apart from the Greeks, I mean when the Ionians and Dorians later crossed over to Asia." (Strabo 14.2.28)

Carians and Leleges

The Carians were often linked by Greek writers to the Leleges, but the exact nature of the relationship between Carians and Leleges remains mysterious.
The two groups seem to have been distinct, but later intermingled with each other.

Strabo wrote that they were so intermingled that they were often confounded with each other.[7] However, Athenaeus stated that the Leleges stood in relation to the Carians as the Helots stood to the Lacedaemonians.[8]

This confusion of the two peoples is found also in Herodotus, who wrote that the Carians, when they were allegedly living amid the Cyclades,
were known as Leleges.[9]


One of the Carian ritual centers was Mylasa, where they worshipped their supreme god, called 'the Carian Zeus' by Herodotus.
Unlike Zeus, this was a warrior god.

It is possible that the goddess Hecate, the patron of pathways and crossroads, originated among the Carians.[12]
Herodotus calls her Athena and says that her priestess would grow a beard when disaster pended.[13]

On Mount Latmos near Miletus, the Carians worshipped Endymion, who was the lover of the Moon and fathered FIFTY children.
[these 50 children were mentioned above, and were likely to be a collection of cities.]
Endymion slept eternally, in the sanctuary devoted to him, which lasted into Roman times.

There is at least one named priestess known to us from this region,
Carminia Ammia who was priestess of Thea Maeter Adrastos and of Aphrodite.
Greek mythology

According to Herodotus, the Carians were named after an eponymous Car, a legendary early king and a brother of Lydus and Mysus, also eponymous founders respectively of Lydians and Mysians and all sons of Atys.[9]

Homer records that Miletus (later an Ionian city),
together with the mountain of Phthries, the river Maeander and the crests of Mount Mycale were held by the Carians at the time of the Trojan War
and that the Carians, qualified by Homer as being of incomprehensible speech, joined the Trojans against the Achaeans under the leadership of Nastes,
brother of Amphimachos ("he who fights both ways") and son of Nomion.
These figures appear only in the Iliad and in a list in Dares of Phrygia's epitome of the Trojan War.

Classical Greeks would often claim that part of Caria to the north was originally colonized by Ionian Greeks before the Dorians.

The Greek goddess Hecate possibly originated among the Carians.[14]
Indeed, most theophoric names invoking Hecate, such as Hecataeus or Hecatomnus, the father of Mausolus, are attested in Caria.[15]



Their first mention is by Homer, in his list of Trojans allies in the Iliad, and according to whom the Mysians fought in the Trojan War on the side of Troy,
under the command of Chromis and Ennomus the Augur, and were lion-hearted spearmen who fought with their bare hands.[1]

Herodotus in his Histories wrote that the Mysians were brethren of the Carians and the Lydians, originally Lydian colonists in their country, and as such,
they had the right to worship alongside their relative nations in the sanctuary dedicated to the Carian Zeus in Mylasa.[2]
Herodotus also mentions a movement of Mysians and associated peoples from Asia into Europe still earlier than the Trojan War,
wherein the Mysians and Teucrians had crossed the Bosphorus into Europe
and after conquering all of Thrace pressed forward till they came to the Ionian Sea, while southward they reached as far as the river Peneus.[3]

[Nice to see that David Packard, the author of "Minoan Linear A", is still at it: ... _Institute]


The Homeric name for the Lydians was Μαίονες, cited among the allies of the Trojans during the Trojan War,
and from this name "Maeonia" and "Maeonians" derive and while these Bronze Age terms have sometimes been used as alternatives for Lydia and the Lydians, nuances have also been brought between them.

The first attestation of Lydians by the name of Lydians occurs in Neo-Assyrian sources. The annals of Assurbanipal (mid-7th century BC)refer to the embassy of Gu(g)gu, king of Luddi, to be identified with Gyges, king of the Lydians. [2]

It seems likely that the term "Lydians" came to be used with reference to the inhabitants of Sardis and its vicinity only with the rise of the Mermnad dynasty. [3]

Herodotus states that the Lydians "were the first men whom we know who coined and used gold and silver currency".[4] While this specifically refers to coinage in electrum, some numismatists think that coinage per se arose in Lydia.[5]

According to Ovid's account, Niobe, daughter of Tantalus [Te Hantalishi] and Dione and the sister of Pelops and Broteas, had known Arachne, a Lydian woman, when she was still in Lydia/Maeonia in her father's lands near to Mount Sipylus, These eponymous figures may have corresponded to the obscure ages associated with the semi-legendary dynasty of the Atyads and/or Tantalids, and situated around the time of the emergence of a Lydian nation from their predecessors and/or previous identities as Maeonians and Luvians.

Several accounts on the dynasty of Tylonids succeeding the Atyads and/or Tantalids are available, and once into the last Lydian dynasty of Mermnads, the legendary accounts surrounding Ring of Gyges [this was likely one of the seal rings, examples of which are shown above],
and Gyges's later enthronement to the Lydian throne and foundation of the new dynasty, by replacing the King Kandaules, the last of the Taylanids,
this in alliance with Kandaules's wife who then became his queen, are Lydian stories in the full sense of the term,
as recounted by Herodotus, who himself may have borrowed his passages from Xanthus of Lydia, a Lydian who had reportedly written a history of his country slightly earlier in the same century.

[This Gyges may be related to the Linear B people ke-ke]

Attestations and Etymology

The name of the Lydian king Γύγης is attested many times in Greek transmission.
In addition, the annals of the Assyrian king Assurbanipal, refer several times to Gu(g)gu, king of Luddi, to be identified with Gyges, king of the Lydians. [1]
[just for min]
Many Bible scholars[2] believe that Gyges of Lydia was the Biblical figure of Gog, ruler of Magog,
who is mentioned in the Book of Ezekiel and the Book of Revelation.
This name is probably of Carian origin, being cognate with Hitt. ḫuḫḫa-, Luw. /huha-/ and Lyc. xuga- ‘grandfather’.
The Carian name quq is attested as Γυγος in Greek transmission. [3]
This etymology correlates with the intrusive, probably Carian origin of the Mermnad dynasty in Lydia. [4]

Allegorical accounts of Gyges' rise to power

Authors throughout ancient history have told differing stories of Gyges's rise to power, which considerably vary in detail,
but virtually all involve Gyges seizing the throne, killing King Candaules and marrying Candaules' Queen.
[This last is important in matriarchal societies.]

Gyges was the son of Dascylus.
Dascylus was recalled from banishment in Cappadocia by the Lydian king Candaules and sent his son back to Lydia instead of himself.

According to Nicolaus of Damascus,
Gyges soon became a favourite of Candaules
and was dispatched by him to fetch Tudo, the daughter of Arnossus of Mysia, whom the Lydian king wished to make his queen.
[again, this last is important in matriarchal societies.]

On the way Gyges fell in love with Tudo, who complained to Sadyates of his conduct.
Forewarned that Candaules intended to punish him with death,
Gyges assassinated Candaules in the night and seized the throne.

In his turn, the Lydian king took as his paidika Magnes,
a handsome youth from Smyrna noted for his elegant clothes and fancy korymbos hairstyle which he bound with a golden band.
One day Magnes was singing poetry to the local women,
which outraged their male relatives, who grabbed Magnes, stripped him of his clothes and cut off his hair.[5]

According to Plutarch, Gyges seized power with the help of Arselis of Mylasa, the captain of the Lydian bodyguard, whom he had won over to his cause.

In the account of Herodotus, which may be traced to the poet Archilochus of Paros,
[but probably should not be, as Herodotus was a native of Halicarnasos,
and thoroughly familiar with the Lycian variant of the Epic Cycle}
Gyges was a bodyguard of Candaules, who believed his wife to be the most beautiful woman on Earth.
Candaules insisted upon showing the reluctant Gyges his wife when disrobed as he wanted to show her beauty,
which so enraged her that she gave Gyges the choice of murdering her husband and making himself king,
or of being put to death himself.

Finally, in the more allegorical account of Plato (The Republic, II), a parallel account may be found. Here, Gyges was a shepherd, who discovered a magic ring of invisibility, by means of which he murdered the King and won the affection of the Queen. This account bears marked similarity to that of Herodotus.
[Except that the shepherd finds the ring in a "cave" with a suit of Bronzew Age armor.]

In all cases, civil war ensued on the death of the King,
which was only ended when Gyges sought to justify his ascendance to the throne by petitioning for the approval of the Oracle at Delphi.

According to Herodotus, Gyges plied the Oracle with numerous gifts,
notably six mixing bowls minted of gold extracted from the Pactolus river weighing thirty talents.
The Oracleat Delphi confirmed Gyges as the rightful Lydian King,
gave moral support to the Lydians over the Asian Greeks,
and also claimed that the dynasty of Gyges would be powerful,
but due to his usurpation of the throne would fall in the fifth generation.
This claim was later proven true, though perhaps by the machination of the Oracle's successor:
Gyges's fourth descendant, Croesus, prompted by a prophecy of the later Oracle,
attacked the Persian armies of Cyrus the Great and lost the kingdom as a result.

Reign and death

Once established on the throne, Gyges devoted himself to consolidating his kingdom and making it a military power,
although exactly how far the Lydian kingdom extended under his reign is difficult to ascertain.

He captured Colophon, already largely Lydianized in tastes and customs
and Magnesia on the Maeander, the only other Aeolian colony in the largely Ionian southern Aegean coast of Anatolia,
and probably also Sipylus, whose successor was to become the city also named Magnesia in later records.
Smyrna was besieged[6] and alliances were entered into with Ephesus and Miletus.
To the north, the Troad was brought under Lydian control.

The armies of Gyges pushed back the Cimmerians,
who had ravaged Asia Minor and caused the fall of Phrygia.
During his campaigns against the Cimmerians, an embassy was sent to Assur-bani-pal at Nineveh in the hope of obtaining his help against the Cimmerians.
But the Assyrians were otherwise engaged,
and Gyges turned to Egypt, sending his faithful Carians troops along with Ionian mercenaries to assist Psammetichus in shaking off the Assyrian yoke.

Gyges later fell in a battle against the Cimmerii under Dugdamme
(called Lygdamis by Strabo i. 3. 21—"who probably mistook the Greek Delta Δ for a Lambda Λ"),
who had previously advanced as far as the town of Sardis.
Gyges was succeeded by his son Ardys II.

Several expressions on Lydians were in common use in ancient Greek and in Latin languages,
and a collection and detailed treatment of these were done by Erasmus in his Adagia.
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby Tiompan » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:29 pm

It's a great story E.P. . ... 0306813289 ... ddess.html .

Coincidentally there are some hilarious Dylan "fakes" on youtube too .
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby Tiompan » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:33 pm

E.P. Grondine wrote:LYDIANS

Can't beat that twist of lemon associated with the sharp fourth.
George Russel would put anyone off though .
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:13 pm

Tiompan wrote:
E.P. Grondine wrote:LYDIANS

Can't beat that twist of lemon associated with the sharp fourth.
George Russel would put anyone off though .
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
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E.P. Grondine
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Re: Luwian notes

Postby E.P. Grondine » Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:16 am



I. [I <am>] Azatiwata, the person favored by the sun god, the servant of Tarhunt,
II. the one who Awa/riku, the king of Adana made great,
III. Tarhunt made me Mother and Father for Adana.
IV. I caused Adana to prosper.
V. I extended the territory of Adana, on one hand to the west,
on the other hand to the east.
VI. And in my days he gave Adana all good, full and welfare.
VII. And I filled the storehouses of Pahar
VIII. I submitted horse to horse;
IX I submitted army to army;
X. I submitted shield to shield,
all through Tarhunt and the gods,
XI. which I destroyed the pride(?).
XII. But the evil, which was in the Land,
XIII. I removed it <from> the land.
XIV And that to my people belonging to the house I raised in goodness,
XV. and the to my people belonging to the descendants I did everything good.
XVI and I caused them to sit on their paternal throne.


HAWKINS BMSAES 14 ... wkins.aspx

The Bronze Tablet treaty between Tudhaliya IV and his cousin Kuruntiya, King of Tarhuntassa (Beckman 1996, no. 18C)
established the size and importance of Tarhuntassa and that its western border was at Parha, on the river Kastaraya.
Parha is securely identifiable as classical Perge on the river Kestros.
The text indicates that beyond this lay the Lukka lands,
thus in the general area of classical Lycia, which was confirmed by the Yalburt inscription.
Here the campaign of Tudhaliya IV against Lukka includes
the conquest of towns with names unmistakeably identifiable with classical Lycian toponyms (Poetto 1993, 75–82):
Awarna (= Aramaic ’wrn, classical Xanthos), Pinali, Talawa, Patara and Wiyanawanda,
equivalent to Pinara, Tlos, Patara and Oenoanda in classical sources.
Effectively, this new information showed southern Anatolia, west of Kizzuwatna
(long since identified with Cilicia),
was occupied by Tarhuntassa and the Lukka Lands, thus that the Arzawa lands could not be located here, as had been proposed.

The reading of the KARABEL relief inscription as the work of Tarkasnawa, king of MIRA,
the same man as the owner of the silver ‘Tarkondemos’ seal, indicated that the Karabel
pass, carrying the road from Ephesos [Apasus] to Sardis, marked the frontier between the two most
important Arzawa lands, Mira to the south and the Seha River Land to the north[?] (Hawkins 1998).

These further Hittite toponyms, identifiable with classical ones, fit well with, thus
corroborate, these locations.
The land of Lazpa, lying across the sea and in the sphere of interest of the king of the Seha River land
according to the Manapatarhunda letter (Houwink ten Cate 1983/4, 38), has long been accepted as the island of Lesbos.
Apasa, the royal city of greater Arzawa, whence its king fled by boat to the islands according to
its sole attestation in Mursili’s account of his western campaign (see above), has been identified as Ephesos
(Garstang and Gurney 1959, 88). The ongoing discovery of Late Bronze Age remains at that site (Büyükkolancı 2000) provides archaeological corroboration.
The city Millawanda, linked to the kings of Arzawa and Ahhiyawa and apparently raided by the Hittites in Mursili’s third year according to an unfortunately fragmentary passage in the Extended Annals (Goetze 1933, 36–39),
was identified as Miletos as early as 1929 (Hrozný 1929, 329),
which has been variously accepted or disputed.
Millawanda is attested in two other principal sources.
The Tawagalawa letter (Sommer 1932, 2 ff.), probably written by Hattusili III,
shows that it lay on the sea aside from the Hittite king’s route to the Lukka lands and was under the authority of king of Ahhiyawa.
The Milawata letter of Tudhaliya IV shows
its frontier to have been the object of a joint initiative of the Hittite king and the king of (probably) MILA (Hoffner 1952; Hawkins 1998, 19).
These indications of location support the Miletos identification,
as does the archaeological evidence that Middle-Late Bronze Age Miletos was a Minoan,
then Mycenaean, colony (Niemeier 1997).
This has now been generally accepted and philological objections deftly bypassed (Morpurgo Davies in Hawkins 1998, 30f., n. 207).
Thus these toponyms, Lazpa, Apasa and Millawanda,
join the group of Bronze Age predecessors of classical place names:
in the Lukka lands (Lycia), Awarna, Pinali, Talawa, Patara, and Wiyanawanda;
in Tarhuntassa, Parha on the river Kastaraya and Ikkuwaniya (Ikonion);
and in Cilicia, Tarsa and Ataniya (Tarsus, Adana).

[somehintg of an understatement; note also the problems in definitvely identifying locations]
it is clear that Suppiluliuma’s reign coincided with that of Akhenaten (Niphururiya) and
correspondingly the reign of his father, Tudhaliya III, coincided largely with that of Amenophis III.
The king of Arzawa, Uhhaziti, who was defeated by Mursili II in his third year and died in his fourth,
is recorded as having had dealings with Suppiluliuma (over Puranda: Goetze 1933, 58, iii B 26–27).
Tarhundaradu will have been a more or less direct predecessor of Uhhaziti
and, as a contemporary of Amenophis III and doubtless also of Tudhaliya III, probably of
the preceding generation.
For the two generations before Tudhaliya III, the reigns of his father Arnuwanda I and grandfather Tudhaliya I/II, the ‘man of Arzawa,’
Kupanta-d KAL (I), is known from the Indictment of Madduwatta and the Annals of Arnuwanda I,
where he seems to have been the ruler of Arzawa, a position possibly wrested from him by Madduwatta.
Thus, the known rulers of Arzawa, not necessarily an unbroken line and of unknown affiliations,
include Kupanta-d KAL I (contemporary of Tudhaliya I/II and Arnuwanda I),
Tarhundaradu (contemporary of Amenophis III) and Uhhaziti (contemporary of Suppiluliuma I and Mursili II,
who put an end to the unified Arzawan Kingdom).
Important information on western Anatolia is reported to be found in a group of texts, mostly letters, excavated at Ortaköy,
but unfortunately only one of these has so far been published (Süel 2001), dated by the excavator to the period of Tudhaliya III.
This reports the hostile movements of Kupanta-d KAL, [Tar]hunnaradu and the sons of Kupanta-d KAL, [Ma]sduri, Piyamaradu and Kupantazalma.
The Arzawan names are striking. If the dating to Tudhaliya III is established, two of the names reappear in later Arzawan history:
Masduri, king of the Seha River land at the time of Tudhaliya IV,
and Piyamaradu, active in the reigns of Muwatalli II and Hattusili III.

But more significant is the likelihood that
Tarhunnaradu is the same individual as Tarhundaradu, king of Arzawa, probably not yet in his royal office.
It is also within the bounds of possibility that Kupanta-d KAL might be the ‘man of Arzawa,’
active in the reigns of Tudhaliya’s father and grandfather Arnuwanda I and Tudhaliya I/II
(to bridge the three generations he would have to have been young at the beginning and old here).
The relationship between Kupanta-d KAL and Tarhunnaradu is not clear:
as it is expressed, the latter does not appear to be considered one of the sons of the former,
though if the historical identities are right, he would have been a successor.

The statement of Amenophis III that ‘the land of Hattusa has been frozen’ has been variously understood in the past and even now that the meaning of the verb has been pinned down to ‘grow cold, freeze,’ its interpretation remains somewhat elusive (see above).
(possibly caused by the Great Atlantic Impact Mega-tsunami interrupting the Atlantic conveyor)

"NEO HITTITE" kingdoms

In our first post, there was a brief discussion of an article by Charles Steitler, in which he suggests identifying Taita with Toi/Tou, the king of Hamath mentioned in the Bible (2 Sam 8:9-11; 1 Chr. 18:9-11). At this time, there are three issues which make it hard to know for certain if Taita is Toi/Tou. First, it is hard to say why the additional -ta element at the end of Taita would have dropped off. Steitler identifies this element in other Hurrian personal names, but as far as I understand, it is not known for sure what it means, and if we do not know what it means, then we cannot explain why it would be lost. Second, Steitler suggests the shift in vowels from a to ō can be explained by the "Canaanite shift," but this shift is thought to have taken place in the 14th century B.C., long before David, Toi/Tou, 2 Samuel or 1 Chronicles. (A friend has pointed me to an article by Joshua Fox [1996] which discusses a similar Phoenician vowel shift, but it is not clear to me how Phoenician would explain the change when moving from Luwian [or Hurrian] to Hebrew.) Third, Hawkins originally dated Taita to 900-700 B.C., and later adjusted this to sometime in the 11th and 10th centuries B.C., so pinning down the date is an issue for whether Taita could be Toi/Tou. But now, with the publication of ALEPPO 6, this last question concerning chronology has taken a new twist.

In the new article by Hawkins, he makes two modifications to his previous historical reconstruction. First, he is more confident about dating Taita to ca. 1200 B.C. (11th century B.C.). This date is reached on the basis of (1) archaic features noted in the paleography of the ALEPPO 6 inscription, (2) radiocarbon dating of the storm-god temple phase associated with Taita, and (3) stylistic comparison of the sculptures from the Taita phase of the storm-god temple with the sculptures at the temple of 'Ain Dara. Second, the archaic features in the ALEPPO 6 inscription indicate it is earlier than the other Hieroglyphic Luwian inscriptions connected with Taita which were found at Shaizar and Muhradah (about 13 miles northwest of Hamah, Syria). Hawkins suggests the possibility of two kings named Taita: Taita I and Taita II. But because the inscriptions of Aleppo, Shaizar, and Muhradah share many similarities—Taita's name and title, and unique epigraphic features—Hawkins believes that Taita I and Taita II were separated by perhaps not more than a single generation, with Taita II possibly being the grandson of Taita I. Thus, Taita I who was responsible for the Aleppo inscription would have ruled in the 11th century B.C., and Taita II would have ruled in the early 10th century B.C.


This paper demonstrates how machine learning methods can be applied to deal with a real-world decipherment problem where very little
background knowledge is available. The goal is to discover the linear order of a two-dimensional ancient script, Hieroglyphic Luwian. This
paper records a complete decipherment process including encoding, modeling, parameter learning, optimization, and evaluation. The expe
riment shows that the proposed approach is general enough to recover the linear order of various manually generated two-dimensional
scripts without needing to know in advance what language they represent and how the two-dimensional scripts were generated. Since the
proposed method does not require domain specific knowledge, it can be applied not only to language problems but also order discovery tasks
in other domains such as biology and chemistry.

Now just apply LISP to sort out the various versions of the Epic Cycle.
Or put AI to work reconstructng lost works in Greek and Latin.


Drawing of a significant find in 1995 which indicates links of Late Bronze Age Troy to the Hittites in central Anatolia. The find is a biconvex bronze seal with a diameter of 2.3 cm and was discovered in a Troy VII context ( century B.C.). The obverse contains the name of a scribe written in Luwian hieroglyphs, the reverse that of a woman. It is the first prehistoric written evidence from Troy.(J.D.Hawkins and D.F.Easton, A Hieroglyphic Seal from Troia,
Studia Troica 6: 111-118)

Or we can think of Linear A as as hieratic form of Luwian Hieroglyphic.
From wikipedia:
"The script represents three vowels a, i, u and twelve consonants, h, k, l, m, n, p, r, s, t, w, y, z."
But by Brown's readings (certainlyy correct):
The script represents six vowels a, 'a, i,'i, u, 'u and twelve consonants, h, k, l, m, n, p, r, s, t, w, y, z.
[The Wikipedia consonant vowel set assignment is likely to be somewhat off as well]
If the vowel set was as small as the Wikipedia article claims,
then far far fewer signs would have been needed for the Linear A syllabary.

TYRANTS ... 31015D.pdf
The word tÊrannow is, once again, probably of Luwian origin,
from Hieroglyphic Luwian /tarwana/i/-, ‘ruler’. 36
The title is used by several Neo-Hittite rulers in the Iron Age, 37
and might well have entered Greek not directly from Luwian, but via Lydian.38
There is still not a unified consensus as to the range of meaning of tÊrannow and its cognates in the Archaic period;
the concept is not in itself pejorative, since Alcaeus seems to use the word for the Dioscuri (fr.34 A. 6).
It does however seem to convey the sense of absolute power (implicit in Archilochus fr. 19, which is a priamel of ultimate attainments),
and thus could well be pejorative when applied to persons such as Pittacus who, according to later sources,
were elected within a broader constitutional framework, and for a limited period of time.

In my opinion, it must be viewed against the background of historical events in the reigns of Muwattalli 11 and Mursili IIII/Urhi-Tesub.
Hattusili III says in his Apology that
his brother Muwattalli "went down to the Lower Land,
leaving the city of Hattusa,
he picked up [the gods]
and ancestors from Hattusa
and he carried them down
[to the city of Tarhuntassa]
and made it his place of residence,,2
It stands to reason that Tesub of Halab of Hattusa, too,
must have been among the gods transferred,
considering his prominent position in the dynastic cult.
There were, for sure, those who were afraid
for the wholesale removal of the state deities to the new site.
Many years later Hattusili III stressed in his prayer to the Sun-Goddess of Arinna CTH 383 (KUB 14.7 I 3'-15')
that he had no part in it.
And he was certainly not alone in contesting Muwattalli's action.

One of the most important initiatives
taken by Urhi-Tesub soon after his father's death was
reinstatement of Hattusa as the Hittite royal capital6.
Most members of the royal family seem to have approved of this action,
as we can conclude from the later remarks of Hattusili.

Indeed, Urhi-Tesub may have decided to move back to Hattusa partly
in order to fortify his position on the throne
"He picked up the gods
from Tarhuntassa
and brought them back
to Hattusa.

This brief statement in KUB 21.15 I 11 'f.27 shows the essence of the matter.
Urhi-Tesub reinstated the state and dynastic deities
either in their old temples in Hattusa
which were abandoned for a dozen years or so,
or he had to build new temples.

It seems probable that architectural changes in Hattusa,
especially in the royal citadel,
started already during his brief reign.
Might it be that the Mursili I11/Urhi-Tesub seal,
showing Tesub of Halab,
was made
Last edited by E.P. Grondine on Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Usually people believe what they want to believe until reality intrudes.
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Posts: 1913
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:36 am


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